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Outrigger legs

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asarangan(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

Just curious why the full depth available in OR1 and the wheel fork are

not utilized by the nylon legs. The nylon rod is inserted only part way

into the sockets and the bolt holes are drilled just 5mm from the rod

ends. This design seems a bit strange to me.



I am thinking of buying slightly longer rods and using the full socket

lengths for better support of the legs. 



Also, why nylon? It would seem that a hollow aluminum tube or even PVC

might provide better strength and ligher weight.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

Andrew

nylon was the only material that withstood being bent almost 90 degrees 

without permanent deformation.

Graham



Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Also, why nylon? It would seem that a hollow aluminum tube or even PVC

 might provide better strength and ligher weight.

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

Andrew,



I too was surprised at what you've determined...particularly if the rod 

is subject to the 90 degree bending which Graham describes.



If (presumably momentary) bending is to the 90 degree extreme, I can't 

help but wonder if the forward portion of the speed kit fairing doesn't 

get ground away...(?...Does this in fact occur?)



Since mono-flyers have advised to NOT make the final drilling of the 

rods until the plane is sitting on the gear w/ full weight in order to 

assure that the outrigger wheels can both touch the pavement at the 

same time for optimal ground handling, I will probably be ordering 

longer lengths of rod in order to effect full bearing within the wheel 

fork...although I have no idea whether mono-flyers routinely have done 

so.



Any comments from currently flying mono-guys?



Fred



On Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 10:49  AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>



 Just curious why the full depth available in OR1 and the wheel fork are

 not utilized by the nylon legs.

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

My outrigger legs seem to go all the way into the OR1 forks.  If you're not careful

 taxiing on narrow paved taxiways and get an outrigger off the pavement, the outrigger

 will bend considerably as it steps back onto the pavement and can scrape the OR1

 fairing, no big deal tho.  I sure wouldn't want aluminum fork legs!

  

                                             Glenn



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:25:09 -0700

 Subject: Re: Outrigger legs

 From: fklein(at)orcasonline.com

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 

 Andrew,

 

 I too was surprised at what you've determined...particularly if the rod 

 is subject to the 90 degree bending which Graham describes.

 

 If (presumably momentary) bending is to the 90 degree extreme, I can't 

 help but wonder if the forward portion of the speed kit fairing doesn't 

 get ground away...(?...Does this in fact occur?)

 

 Since mono-flyers have advised to NOT make the final drilling of the 

 rods until the plane is sitting on the gear w/ full weight in order to 

 assure that the outrigger wheels can both touch the pavement at the 

 same time for optimal ground handling, I will probably be ordering 

 longer lengths of rod in order to effect full bearing within the wheel 

 fork...although I have no idea whether mono-flyers routinely have done 

 so.

 

 Any comments from currently flying mono-guys?

 

 Fred

 

 On Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:

 

 > --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan 

 > <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>

 >

 > Just curious why the full depth available in OR1 and the wheel fork are

 > not utilized by the nylon legs. 

 > 

 

 


	


Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors. Try it!  [quote][b]

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

I was not aware of this advice to not drill the rods until the final

phase. Well, mine is done, so I may have to buy a new set of rods when

the time comes.





--- Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 

 Andrew,

 

 I too was surprised at what you've determined...particularly if the

 rod 

 is subject to the 90 degree bending which Graham describes.

 

 If (presumably momentary) bending is to the 90 degree extreme, I

 can't 

 help but wonder if the forward portion of the speed kit fairing

 doesn't 

 get ground away...(?...Does this in fact occur?)

 

 Since mono-flyers have advised to NOT make the final drilling of the 

 rods until the plane is sitting on the gear w/ full weight in order

 to 

 assure that the outrigger wheels can both touch the pavement at the 

 same time for optimal ground handling, I will probably be ordering 

 longer lengths of rod in order to effect full bearing within the

 wheel 

 fork...although I have no idea whether mono-flyers routinely have

 done 

 so.

 

 Any comments from currently flying mono-guys?

 

 Fred

 

 On Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 10:49  AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:

 

 > 

 > <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>

 >

 > Just curious why the full depth available in OR1 and the wheel fork

 are

 > not utilized by the nylon legs.

96victor(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

My builders manual does not say to wait until the final phase to drill the rods and certainly nothing about being sure that both outrigger wheels can reach the ground when rigged.  

 Should the leg length reach the ground when the aircraft is empty?  With one person on board or two? With a full tank of fuel?

 I drilled the legs to the measurement called for in the manual and since I put a tire (tyre?) on that is larger in diameter, my legs are probably too short.

 Tom Friedland

 On 5/17/07, Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com (asarangan(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com  (asarangan(at)yahoo.com)>

I was not aware of this advice to not drill the rods until the final

phase. Well, mine is done, so I may have to buy a new set of rods when

the time comes.

--- Fred Klein < fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein

 <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

 Andrew,

 I too was surprised at what you've determined...particularly if the 

 rod

 is subject to the 90 degree bending which Graham describes.

 If (presumably momentary) bending is to the 90 degree extreme, I

 can't

 help but wonder if the forward portion of the speed kit fairing 

 doesn't

 get ground away...(?...Does this in fact occur?)

 Since mono-flyers have advised to NOT make the final drilling of the

 rods until the plane is sitting on the gear w/ full weight in order 

 to

 assure that the outrigger wheels can both touch the pavement at the

 same time for optimal ground handling, I will probably be ordering

 longer lengths of rod in order to effect full bearing within the 

 wheel

 fork...although I have no idea whether mono-flyers routinely have

 done

 so.

 Any comments from currently flying mono-guys?

 Fred

 On Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 10:49  AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: 

 > --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan

 > <asarangan(at)yahoo.com (asarangan(at)yahoo.com)>

 >

 > Just curious why the full depth available in OR1 and the wheel fork 

[b]

kbcarpenter(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

IMHO it is best to have the legs an inch or so short when on level ground and loaded.  If you get on grass and the main wheel is in a low spot the legs will drag, maybe a lot.  If you are in any dished out area the legs are hard on the ground.  I have no problem with the plane tipping side to side a few inches when ground handling.  

 Ken Carpenter  mono N 9XS

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> 



[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein 

 

 Andrew, 

 

 I too was surprised at what you've determined...particularly if the rod 

 is subject to the 90 degree bending which Graham describes. 

 

 If (presumably momentary) bending is to the 90 degree extreme, I can't 

 help but wonder if the forward portion of the speed kit fairing doesn't 

 get ground away...(?...Does this in fact occur?) 

 

 Since mono-flyers have advised to NOT make the final drilling of the 

 rods until the plane is sitting on the gear w/ full weight in order to 

 assure that the outrigger wheels can both touch the pavement at the 

 same time for optimal ground handling, I will proba  bly be  : 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

The original length seems to work alright and will take 90 degs of bending 

without affecting the ends.  However, as the largest bending moment is at 

the top, I would suggest you allow for a little more penetration at the top 

rather than at the fork end.

Regards,

William



---

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

If you are unluckily enough to ground loop in a strong cross wind, it is 

very likely you will grind away the forward face of the fairing.  I have 

repaired my port fairing twice now!

I think you should be able to achieve both wheels touching with the standard 

legs and as mentioned previously, it is not necessary to have full 

penetration (if you will pardon the expression!) of the nylon rod into the 

sockets.

My first pair of standard legs lasted for 1100 hours, but eventually took up 

a permanent set into a curve, that reduced their effective length, so I have 

just replaced them and it has made handling on take-off and landing more 

positive.

Regards,

William

---

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

No need to replace the legs, just drill new holes to realign the wheels, 

which worked alright for me and didn't seem to weaken the fixing. (1100 

hours without a problem)  It is important to make sure the wheels track 

correctly, otherwise the outrigger tyres will wear on one side very badly.

Regards,

William

---

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

I made mine touch the ground when empty plus fuel  etc, but I don't think it is that sensitive.

 Regards,

 William

 [quote]   ---

justin(at)systemwise.co.u
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

Hi All  

   

I will be going to Wick, weather permitting, so hope to meet up with you Northern Lights Tour boys then.  

   

Outrigger Legs  

My outrigger legs had to be drilled very close to the end to make them long enough. If I could buy a set of new ones that were say 2 inches longer. I would. They would then have a more satisfactory seating in the top housing. I worry that they are only just in far enough though I have had a heavy landing or three and they haven’t given up.  

The other great outrigger mystery is the toe in. In an attempt to work out exactly how much toe in was required to stop the wheels being warn unevenly I came up with a revelation. If you draw the tracking out on paper or CAD it shows that you need some toe out. However in practice you need toe in as the outriggers are being worn more on the inboard side. I can’t get to the bottom if this one at all.   

I don’t intend to bother with it anymore and set a 5 degree toe in which I think will be the practical answer.  

If I have missed something here please tell me.  

   

Aileron sealing.  

I was speaking to a Long EZ man who said the whole sealing aileron thing had caused a big stir with them some time back.  

Their ailerons are hinged at the top in the same way as ours are at the bottom. One of the ways they seal them was to put cling film along the outside if the hinge line gap and squeeze a small bead of silicon sealant on the inside for the whole length. Remove excess with finger. Then pull of the cling film off when it is set. Flexible sealed joint results.   

Sounds good but I couldn’t find anyone who had actually done it this way. Just thought I would mention it.  

   

Cheers  

Justin  

G-ZTED Classic Monowheel 912S Airmaster.  

   

   

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

I also noticed that the nylon legs are preventing my flaps from fully

retracting. The upper limit of the flap movement seems to be limited by

the nylon legs coming in contact with the FL3 plate, and this is

slightly short of the condition required to get the flap and aileron

perfectly aligned. Anyone else notice this? 



One thought was to locally shave the nylon legs where the FL3 is coming

in contact. All I would need is another 3mm of travel at the FL3, which

would translate into something larger at the trailing edge of the flap.

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

On Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 03:20  PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I also noticed that the nylon legs are preventing my flaps from fully

 retracting. The upper limit of the flap movement seems to be limited by

 the nylon legs coming in contact with the FL3 plate, and this is

 slightly short of the condition required to get the flap and aileron

 perfectly aligned. Anyone else notice this?



 One thought was to locally shave the nylon legs where the FL3 is coming

 in contact. All I would need is another 3mm of travel at the FL3, which

 would translate into something larger at the trailing edge of the flap.


	


Andrew,



The condition you describe is not something I've encountered nor do I 

recall any postings by others which might indicate this is a common 

problem.



Before you start shaving things...if I was in your shoes...I would 

consider checking all the elements which contribute to the geometry in 

question; e.g., I would set the outrigger mechanism aside and verify 

that the flap positioning is correct, the gap between wing closeout and 

flap LE is constant, and reposition the large template over the top of 

the wing. I would de-mount the flaps, and pull out the template used to 

position the FL plates. I would check the template itself for correct 

dimensions and angles.



Something seems amiss to generate the contact you describe.



Hope this helps,



Fred

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

Fred



Thanks for that message.



Here is a pic that shows the problem area. I have checked the

dimensions and they all appear to be correct, to within a millimeter or

two in the worst case.



Any insights you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks.



Andrew Sarangan

http://www.sarangan.org

IMG_2728.jpg

Description:

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108.27 KB

Viewed:

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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

Andrew,



Your pix of your outrigger looks a lot like mine...you'd previously 

said that the interference you've encountered keeps the flaps and 

ailerons from aligning...I'm not clear as to why that is the case.



What happens when you flip the wing over?



When you do so, be sure that your wingroot template is in place and 

grabbing the TE of the flap and that the outermost TE of your aileron 

is aligned w/ the BOTTOM of the wingtip and clamped to hold it in 

place. My hunch is when this is done, alignment will be fine and you 

won't experience any interference from the outriggers.



I did my wings simultaneously as I was concerned about maintaining 

symmetry...



Fred



On Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 10:21  AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Fred



 Thanks for that message.



 Here is a pic that shows the problem area. I have checked the

 dimensions and they all appear to be correct, to within a millimeter or

 two in the worst case.



 Any insights you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks.



 Andrew Sarangan

 http://www.sarangan.org

 -- 

 This message has been scanned for viruses and

 dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

 believed to be clean.



 <IMG_2728.jpg>


	




-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: Outrigger legs

Perhaps I am splitting hairs trying to get everything perfect. When I

retract the flaps, the max up-travel is being limited by the nylon legs

coming in contact with the FL3 plate. After repeated flap operation, I

can even see a small ding mark on the nylon leg. This was a surprise to

me because I did not expect the nylon legs to function as any kind of

travel limit. 

When I did the alignment, I painstakingly set the gap between the

flap's leading edge and the vertical closeout to be 5mm. But with the

nylon legs attached, that 5mm gap seems to be a moot point. I can't

retract the flaps to reach that 5mm gap anymore. It is more like 10mm.

This is the reason the flap and aileron don't perfectly line up now

because I did that alignment with the nylon legs off, and a 5mm gap.

--- Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 Andrew,

 Your pix of your outrigger looks a lot like mine...you'd previously 

 said that the interference you've encountered keeps the flaps and 

 ailerons from aligning...I'm not clear as to why that is the case.

 What happens when you flip the wing over?

 When you do so, be sure that your wingroot template is in place and 

 grabbing the TE of the flap and that the outermost TE of your aileron

 is aligned w/ the BOTTOM of the wingtip and clamped to hold it in 

 place. My hunch is when this is done, alignment will be fine and you 

 won't experience any interference from the outriggers.

 I did my wings simultaneously as I was concerned about maintaining 

 symmetry...

 Fred

 On Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 10:21  AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:

 > Fred

 >

 > Thanks for that message.

 >

 > Here is a pic that shows the problem area. I have checked the

 > dimensions and they all appear to be correct, to within a

 millimeter or

 > two in the worst case.

 >

 > Any insights you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Andrew Sarangan

 > http://www.sarangan.org

 > -- 

 > This message has been scanned for viruses and

 > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

 > believed to be clean.

 >

 > <IMG_2728.jpg>

 -- 

 This message has been scanned for viruses and

 dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

 believed to be clean.

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 635

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Outrigger legs

Andrew,



We had the same problem when we started flying last year.  We talked to Andy and filed a little off FL3 and even opened up the slot in OR5 (with Andy's OK).  Our outrigger still didn't seem to retract fully but we flew anyway.



Now during our rebuild we fitted new OR5 to have the proper slot length and spent a lot of time fiddling with the outrigger assembly.  We finally noticed that OR4 is hitting OR6 which prevents the outrigger from fully retracing.  OR6 is not symmetrical.  We found that flipping it over so short end (length from hole to end of block) faces aft gave us a little more movement of OR4 and results in the outrigger coming up properly.  We suppose you could file some off OR4 but the manual cautions against this (page 9-10 Issue 2).  Fig 15 on page 9-9 shows the relationship of OR4 and OR6 with the outrigger retracted.



Jim & Heather

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Outrigger legs

Great, thanks!! I was starting to get worried if I was doing something

wrong, but I am glad to hear this from you. 



--- "h&amp;jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <europa(at)triton.net>

 

 Andrew,

 

 We had the same problem when we started flying last year.  We talked

 to Andy and filed a little off FL3 and even opened up the slot in OR5

 (with Andy's OK).  Our outrigger still didn't seem to retract fully

 but we flew anyway.

 

 Now during our rebuild we fitted new OR5 to have the proper slot

 length and spent a lot of time fiddling with the outrigger assembly. 

 We finally noticed that OR4 is hitting OR6 which prevents the

 outrigger from fully retracing.  OR6 is not symmetrical.  We found

 that flipping it over so short end (length from hole to end of block)

 faces aft gave us a little more movement of OR4 and results in the

 outrigger coming up properly.  We suppose you could file some off OR4

 but the manual cautions against this (page 9-10 Issue 2).  Fig 15 on

 page 9-9 shows the relationship of OR4 and OR6 with the outrigger

 retracted.

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 

 

 

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