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Carb jet changes

 
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

I had an interesting week working on the Bing carb on my serial #2062
Jabiru 2200A engine. I had been running the engine with the cowl off,
and I noticed that fuel was going up the clear tube that is the carb
bowl vent. I assumed that this was a temporary overflow of fuel and
it would soon be gone with the engine running, but it was not.
However, revving the engine got rid of the fuel in that line.
Finally, I closed the main fuel valve, and shut the engine off. I
then took the incoming air hose off the carb, and about a half-cup of
fuel gushed out. This led me to believe that the float needle was
leaking...DUH! It turned out to be exactly that. I ordered a new
needle and seat, and a #40 idle jet. The reason for ordering the jet
was I had read others' comments that the #40 jet took care of their
idling problems. With the new needle and seat in place, and #40 jet
too, the engine ran great, and I could get the idle down to below
900, and it was smooth. Later on, I decide to test the old #45 jet,
so I reinstalled it, and the engine ran great with that (original)
jet. So my major problem was with the float needle and seat, and
nothing else. Amazingly, I have had this bad idle problem for some
time now, and it's been a leaking needle and seat all along. I had
been just learning to deal with the rough idle.

Along with curing the rough idle, I no longer have to shut the main
fuel valve off 30 seconds before I shut the engine down. I thought by
doing this, I was lowering the fuel level in the float bowl, and
thereby keeping the carb from "boiling over", but I was just using up
the excess fuel that was already (probably) laying in the inlet air
hose.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Peter H



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Lynn
I found with the J3300 that the needle seat supplied is 2.25mm and according
to Bing engineers is meant for gravity feed. Anything above 2500RPM and it
ran over rich.
I replaced that seat with the 1.5mm seat recommended by Bing and that cured
rich running all the way to WOT and EGT was within recommended range
although hotter, but if I turned on the electric boost pump even this 1.5mm
seat leaked and caused a big increase in fuel consumption. I discussed with
Jabiru engineers and they confirmed policy to run with the over size seat to
cool the engine and it "works" OK up to 2700 RPM and is "safe" above that
with consumption up to 40LPH.
I am now using TBI and have total control of mixture full range.
Peter H

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Hi Peter-
I have an electric boost pump, but only use it to insure fuel at the
carb after any work done, or to check for carb leakage, like I found
this week. A test pilot turned it on while landing a year ago (not
knowing any better) and the engine quit. Without the electric pump,
and with only the mechanical Jabiru pump operating while engine is
running, the gauge reads 2 lbs. pressure, and all seems to be fine.

I should note that when I first got the plane up after the changes,
it was running hotter on the right-hand 2 cylinders. I rotated the
carb according to the "old wives tale", that is rotate the top of the
carb towards the cool, rich side, and that helped. I then rotated it
again, a little more this time, and the cylinders are within 60-70° F
of one another, for most of the operating range...certainly where it
operates the most, at cruising speed. Having had the plenum chamber
and carb off last week I can see how this works. If the carb is
rotated, the spray pattern will change in respect to the divider that
is situated inside the plenum chamber. Apparently if the carb top is
rotated towards the cool side, the spray pattern is divided more
toward the hot, lean side, and the temps between the two sides become
closer together. At least that's what I've been able to observe.

It's late at night and my memory is fading...what's TBI? A type of
carb, I'm assuming? I'm just not recalling....

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs

On Nov 1, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Peter Harris wrote:

[quote]
<peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>

Lynn
I found with the J3300 that the needle seat supplied is 2.25mm and
according
to Bing engineers is meant for gravity feed. Anything above 2500RPM
and it
ran over rich.
I replaced that seat with the 1.5mm seat recommended by Bing and
that cured
rich running all the way to WOT and EGT was within recommended range
although hotter, but if I turned on the electric boost pump even
this 1.5mm
seat leaked and caused a big increase in fuel consumption. I
discussed with
Jabiru engineers and they confirmed policy to run with the over
size seat to
cool the engine and it "works" OK up to 2700 RPM and is "safe"
above that
with consumption up to 40LPH.
I am now using TBI and have total control of mixture full range.
Peter H

--


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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Peter H



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Lynn
By TBI I mean throttle body fuel injection. I have a 45mm throttle body with
two injectors.
Rotating the carb. means that the partly opened butterfly is directing the
air/fuel flow to one side or the other and this affects mixture rich or lean
each side of the plenum.
With the throttle body I have it mounted so the butterfly axis is horizontal
and the problem does not arise.
Peter H

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dredmoody(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Actually, according to Pete Krotje, rotating the top of the carb toward the cool side works because it moves the jet, which is on the bottom of the carb throat, toward the hot side. The Bottom of the intake stream where the jet is spewing fuel, tends to be the richer area in the intake stream going inmto the plenum. Moving that rich segment of the intake flow to the hot (lean) side richens the mixture for the cylinders on that side.

At least that's what I was taught.

Dred

---- Peter Harris <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> wrote:
[quote]

Lynn
By TBI I mean throttle body fuel injection. I have a 45mm throttle body with
two injectors.
Rotating the carb. means that the partly opened butterfly is directing the
air/fuel flow to one side or the other and this affects mixture rich or lean
each side of the plenum.
With the throttle body I have it mounted so the butterfly axis is horizontal
and the problem does not arise.
Peter H

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Excellent, Dred. That's the way I had it figured out, and now that I
see the divider inside the plenum, it makes more sense to me WHY the
rotation of the carb works.

Lynn

On Nov 2, 2007, at 9:19 AM, <dredmoody(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote]

Actually, according to Pete Krotje, rotating the top of the carb
toward the cool side works because it moves the jet, which is on
the bottom of the carb throat, toward the hot side. The Bottom of
the intake stream where the jet is spewing fuel, tends to be the
richer area in the intake stream going inmto the plenum. Moving
that rich segment of the intake flow to the hot (lean) side richens
the mixture for the cylinders on that side.

At least that's what I was taught.

Dred

---- Peter Harris <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
>
> Lynn
> By TBI I mean throttle body fuel injection. I have a 45mm throttle
> body with
> two injectors.
> Rotating the carb. means that the partly opened butterfly is
> directing the
> air/fuel flow to one side or the other and this affects mixture
> rich or lean
> each side of the plenum.
> With the throttle body I have it mounted so the butterfly axis is
> horizontal
> and the problem does not arise.
> Peter H
>
> --


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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avidflyer01



Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Lynn,I also noticed that if I remove the SCAT tube which connects the carb to the air filter, there is some petrol sitting there (if the engine has just been running); I also experience some troubles as to idle, if I reduce power to around 800rpm the engine will progressively start slowing down and will eventually quit after some 30-45secs (as it occasionally does on final if I don't baby it with throttle). exhaust is definitely sooty in spite of high EGT in flight.

I will try putting a new idle/seat; it sounds surprising, though, because I would expect to find a puddle of gas under the plane if left with a valve open - which is not the case in my plane.

martin
avid flyer STOL HH w/Jab2200


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Peter H



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Martin,
1. The needle valve seat supplied is 2.25mm meant for gravity feed and
Bing specify a 1.5mm seat for pump feed. The 2.25mm seat leaks under pump
pressure causing an excessive rich mixture but this normally is worse at the
higher throttle settings.
2. When throttle is reduced quickly some excess unused fuel runs back
down the induction tubes and floods through the top of the carby. and into
the scat.

Peter H

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Martin-
Are you really using SCAT hose directly to the carb? My instructions
warned against that, as the engine wants a nice smooth flow of air,
for the last 4 inches at least. The air must flow smoothly into the
carb because the two air sensor ports need a smooth and equal flow in
order to operate properly...or so the instructions say.

Your idle problems sound just *exactly* like mine did before I
installed the newer, and smaller, float needle and seat. Now I can
fly the plane, land, taxi to wherever on the field, and shut the
engine off....no more having to shut off the main fuel valve a
certain amount of time before I shut the engine down...no more
worrying about whether it will start when hot...just no more treating
the engine differently. Hell, with the engine operating like this, I
could rent it out as a training plane...NOT!

Maybe your leak was not as great as mine, Martin, or it evaporates
quickly (no puddle under yours). My rubber air hose to my carb, for
the carb incoming air, is a piece of truck radiator hose, and unless
it had a long-standing pool of gas sitting in it, would not leak any
fuel until it rotted away.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs
On Nov 9, 2007, at 12:12 AM, avidflyer01 wrote:

Quote:

<vegayacht(at)club.fr>

Lynn,I also noticed that if I remove the SCAT tube which connects
the carb to the air filter, there is some petrol sitting there (if
the engine has just been running); I also experience some troubles
as to idle, if I reduce power to around 800rpm the engine will
progressively start slowing down and will eventually quit after
some 30-45secs (as it occasionally does on final if I don't baby it
with throttle). exhaust is definitely sooty in spite of high EGT in
flight.

I will try putting a new idle/seat; it sounds surprising, though,
because I would expect to find a puddle of gas under the plane if
left with a valve open - which is not the case in my plane.

martin
avid flyer STOL HH w/Jab2200


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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avidflyer01



Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Carb jet changes/SCAT hose to carb Reply with quote

Lynn, I was also warned against the use of scat hose; My initial setup that dit not include airbox (had only 90°elbow from truck radiator hose and conical air filter on it) worked fine. Then I decided to mount the airbox - I think Avids have less room between carb intake and firewall (70mm) compared to Kitfoxes and my rubber elbow would not fit any longer.
So I went for a scat hose, just to try, and it actually works fine (I also flew with carb intake simply open, I don't see any noticable diffrence in power, smoothness, or EGT.
of course it is very difficult to put a scat on the narrow flange of the carb and tighten the clamp without having it slide off. But if you achieve it correctly, it works.
I am at present making an epoxy "cobra head" to have a firm fit to the carb and a smooth air transition.
martin


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Jim Ballenger



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:37 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Lynn
I read your story in the Sport Pilot. Great job.
Jim Ballenger
Sonex 760 TD / Jabiru 2200
Virginia Beach, VA
---


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Thanks, Jim. I had a lot of fun doing the article and it brought back
a lot of memories of building the plane...which of course wasn't all
that long ago.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs
do not archive
On Nov 11, 2007, at 5:36 AM, Jim Ballenger wrote:

Quote:

<ulpilot(at)cavtel.net>

Lynn
I read your story in the Sport Pilot. Great job.
Jim Ballenger
Sonex 760 TD / Jabiru 2200
Virginia Beach, VA


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Martin-
I was thinking about making a fiberglass "cobra head," because of the
closeness of my installation, then I found the radiator hose
solution. The hose of so stiff that it's a bear to get on the carb,
but when on it works just fine...nice smooth transition from the
airbox, through about 4" of SCAT, then into about 6" of the curved
radiator hose, which is vertical to the carb.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs
do not archive
On Nov 11, 2007, at 3:18 AM, avidflyer01 wrote:

Quote:

<vegayacht(at)club.fr>

Lynn, I was also warned against the use of scat hose; My initial
setup that dit not include airbox (had only 90°elbow from truck
radiator hose and conical air filter on it) worked fine. Then I
decided to mount the airbox - I think Avids have less room between
carb intake and firewall (70mm) compared to Kitfoxes and my rubber
elbow would not fit any longer.
So I went for a scat hose, just to try, and it actually works fine
(I also flew with carb intake simply open, I don't see any
noticable diffrence in power, smoothness, or EGT.
of course it is very difficult to put a scat on the narrow flange
of the carb and tighten the clamp without having it slide off. But
if you achieve it correctly, it works.
I am at present making an epoxy "cobra head" to have a firm fit to
the carb and a smooth air transition.
martin


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Yes great story Lynn Kinda reminds me of my self from Radio controlled to Real wings

That Jab is a really nice engine Just installed one on a Plane for a Guy cant wait to hear it run

Ellery in Maine
do not archive


[quote][b]


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:26 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Thanks Ellery-

By the way, I'm not responsible for the picture captions about the
"cordless iron" or the one about the "aluminum of the wing from
rusting." : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs
do not archive
On Nov 11, 2007, at 8:33 AM, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:
Yes great story Lynn Kinda reminds me of my self from Radio
controlled to Real wings

That Jab is a really nice engine Just installed one on a Plane for
a Guy cant wait to hear it run

Ellery in Maine
do not archive

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agbeyer(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

Here are some pics of the intake elbow I made.

Zodiac 601HDS, 3300 Jabiru (350 Hrs.)
Al from Oshkosh
---


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Carb jet changes Reply with quote

I see that you have the air inlet tube coming in from the side. This
is what I was warned against, both in the workshop at Sun 'n' Fun and
in reading the instruction "manual." They say the airflow should come
in from below or above, not from the side, as coming from the side
sends different signals to the two air sensor ports in the top of the
carb throat. But with 350 hours on yours, it must be working well.
I've got ~435 on mine and it works well. I guess that's why we
experiment.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/420+ hrs

On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:04 AM, ALAN BEYER wrote:

[quote] Here are some pics of the intake elbow I made.

Zodiac 601HDS, 3300 Jabiru (350 Hrs.)
Al from Oshkosh

---


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