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2 stroke vs 4 stroke
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

At 08:08 PM 11/15/2007, Richard Girard wrote:



The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center

classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it

wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability

standards.



Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I can 

well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system would be 

prohibitive.



 From time to time I've played with the idea of developing an electronic 

carburetor adjustment system for the small 2-strokes used on PPG's (nice 

thing about a PPG is that an engine failure during testing is normally a 

non event).  My thought was to use an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to 

measure the air/fuel ratio, and some electronics to drive an off the shelf 

R/C servo to adjust the main mixture needle valve (most of these engines 

use Walbro pumper carburetors).  You could program it to keep as far on the 

rich side of a stoichiometric ratio as desired.  It would have to have a 

failsafe mode, of course, to revert to a rich condition in the event of 

failure of the O2 sensor, as well as during startup before the sensor is 

hot enough to generate a signal (cars use heated sensors for startup, until 

the exhaust is hot enough to keep the sensor hot, but they require too much 

power for the lighting coil on a small engine).



On an engine with a float carburetor, it could control the mixture by 

porting and metering manifold vacuum to the float bowl, similar to how the 

altitude compensating carbs do it.



FAR simpler than true fuel injection, and mechanically simple... but 

unfortunately a little beyond my own electronics skills.



Along those lines, has anybody tried the altitude compensating carbs 

available for Rotax engines?  Unfortunately they don't compensate for air 

temperature as well...



				-Dana

--

  Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has enough 

power left to destroy America.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to 

mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We 

rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to 

the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the 

high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple 

and he never had an engine out.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 08:08 PM 11/15/2007, Richard Girard wrote:



 The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center

 classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it

 wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability

 standards.



 Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I 

 can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system would 

 be prohibitive.



 From time to time I've played with the idea of developing an 

 electronic carburetor adjustment system for the small 2-strokes used 

 on PPG's (nice thing about a PPG is that an engine failure during 

 testing is normally a non event).  My thought was to use an oxygen 

 sensor in the exhaust to measure the air/fuel ratio, and some 

 electronics to drive an off the shelf R/C servo to adjust the main 

 mixture needle valve (most of these engines use Walbro pumper 

 carburetors).  You could program it to keep as far on the rich side of 

 a stoichiometric ratio as desired.  It would have to have a failsafe 

 mode, of course, to revert to a rich condition in the event of failure 

 of the O2 sensor, as well as during startup before the sensor is hot 

 enough to generate a signal (cars use heated sensors for startup, 

 until the exhaust is hot enough to keep the sensor hot, but they 

 require too much power for the lighting coil on a small engine).



 On an engine with a float carburetor, it could control the mixture by 

 porting and metering manifold vacuum to the float bowl, similar to how 

 the altitude compensating carbs do it.



 FAR simpler than true fuel injection, and mechanically simple... but 

 unfortunately a little beyond my own electronics skills.



 Along those lines, has anybody tried the altitude compensating carbs 

 available for Rotax engines?  Unfortunately they don't compensate for 

 air temperature as well...



                 -Dana

 -- 

  Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has 

 enough power left to destroy America.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

At 10:50 PM 11/15/2007, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to 

mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We 

rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to the 

high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the high 

speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple and he 

never had an engine out.


	


One of my PPG's has a Solo 210 engine (single cylinder, 14hp).  No EGT, but 

at the start of every day of flying it, I start it slightly rich, lean it 

for peak rpm, then back off 100 rpm or 1/8 turn.  In 350+ hours flying it, 

I've had problems with engine accessories (muffler, ignition, redrive) but 

never a seizure or any other trouble inside the engine.



                                 -Dana

--

  Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

The recipe for all Experimental aircraft: Simplicate and add lightness.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 10:50 PM 11/15/2007, Richard Pike wrote:



> Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent 

> to mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on 

> it. We rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat 

> back to the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to 

> adjust the high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. 

> Anvil simple and he never had an engine out.



 One of my PPG's has a Solo 210 engine (single cylinder, 14hp).  No 

 EGT, but at the start of every day of flying it, I start it slightly 

 rich, lean it for peak rpm, then back off 100 rpm or 1/8 turn.  In 

 350+ hours flying it, I've had problems with engine accessories 

 (muffler, ignition, redrive) but never a seizure or any other trouble 

 inside the engine.



                                 -Dana

 -- 

  Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%: 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to 

 mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We 

 rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to 

 the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the 

 high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple 

 and he never had an engine out.

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)


	


Richard has a sterling idea...but let's extend this out a bit.



http://www.acroname.com/robotics/info/ideas/continuous/continuous.html



There are some really powerful 1/4 scale servos out there that would 

work nicely to control a needle. All one would need is the pulse 

width generating electronics to control the servo....about $6 in 

parts and $15 for the servo. An easy project, electronically. The 

harder part would be building a servo mount. Perhaps a gear drive 

set?



And then this......



 	  Quote: 	
		   > The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center

 > classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it

 > wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability

 > standards.


	


Gee....hope Rotax doesn't hear about this.....



"Two-stroke, twin-cylinder Rotax®, Fuel Injection, R.A.V.E.TM exhaust; 

Water cooled"



On what? SeaDoo GTi, Rotax powered.



 	  Quote: 	
		   > Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I 

 > can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system would 

 > be prohibitive.


	


Now, I'm sure you'll try to tell me that JetSki engines are apples 

and UL engines are oranges. Several other two stroke engine lines 

have fuel injection: Fuji, Hirth, Orbital (especially Orbital), 

Mercury, OMC, Bimota.....it's not hard to do, just not worth it in 

the small volume world of UL sales. THAT is what Eric really means 

but doesn't have the heart to say. I can't imagine that all these 

companies would front all that research and $$$$, risking customer 

loyalty, for an unreliable product....even Rotax.

Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		   	  grantr wrote: 	
		  

What makes the 2 stroke less reliable than the 4 stroke? In theory the 2 stroke should be more reliable especially the piston port engine because it only had a few moving parts to fail. 

	




Bottom line is if you want a reliable engine that is least likely to quit then its a no brainier, fly a 4 stroke.    



If you can not afford a 4 stroke, and have no other option then to fly with a 2 stroke, do yourself a favor and read this article.  Its short, and gives you really good useful, real world information (not a bunch of theory ) on how to keep your 2 stroke running as reliably as possible.  



http://curedcomposites.netfirms.com/twostroke.html



Mike 	




Good information on engines.  Thank you!  Can you point me to more reading on these engines?     I am a novice on these little motors.



Can you recommend any video programs or books on operating the Rotax 2 cycle engine?      A "Rotax 2 Stoke for Dummies" would be perfect.



I "can afford a 4 stroke"; what type of 4 stroke can be used on the Firestar, or is that not an option?   



If 2 stoke is my only option, I have a 477, ...... is a dual ignition model more reliable?      Or is it the proper tuning that is the primary key to good service?



Thanks.



Jim

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

At 11:29 PM 11/15/2007, Jim Baker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.acroname.com/robotics/info/ideas/continuous/continuous.html

There are some really powerful 1/4 scale servos out there that would

work nicely to control a needle. All one would need is the pulse

width generating electronics to control the servo....about $6 in

parts and $15 for the servo. An easy project, electronically. The

harder part would be building a servo mount. Perhaps a gear drive

set?

Mechanically it's simple.  You don't need continuous rotation, the needle 

adjustment needed for weather or altitude changes is small, maybe 1/4 turn.

 	  Quote: 	
		  "Two-stroke, twin-cylinder Rotax®, Fuel Injection, R.A.V.E.TM exhaust;

Water cooled"

On what? SeaDoo GTi, Rotax powered.

 > > Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I

 > > can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system would

 > > be prohibitive.

Now, I'm sure you'll try to tell me that JetSki engines are apples

and UL engines are oranges. Several other two stroke engine lines

have fuel injection...

I knew there were some outboards with fuel injection; I didn't realize 

Rotax made any.  If the development is already done, I'm surprised they 

haven't applied it to the aircraft engines.

                                 -Dana

--

  When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced...

Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.

-- Cherokee saying

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:53 am Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

As far as a servo driver there's no need to reinvent the wheel.



http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3874



A standard servo with a gear drive would be more than enough to move a mixture needle.



http://www.servocity.com/html/mechanicals___accessories.html

[/quote]

There are some really powerful 1/4 scale servos out there that would 

work nicely to control a needle. All one would need is the pulse 

width generating electronics to control the servo....about $6 in 

parts and $15 for the servo. An easy project, electronically. The 

harder part would be building a servo mount. Perhaps a gear drive 

set?

[quote]

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

At 06:53 AM 11/16/2007, icrashrc wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



As far as a servo driver there's no need to reinvent the wheel...


	


If I was just building a remote mixture control I wouldn't use electronics 

at all; a simple push/pull cable would suffice.  The electronics would be 

needed to interpret the O2 sensor's signal voltage and move the servo as 

required.



Some outfits sell O2 sensor driven display units.  They don't control 

anything, just display what the sensor is seeing.  That might be a good 

start, as a manual tuning aid and to see how the sensor holds up.



                                 -Dana



--

  Resist militant "normality" -- A mind is a terrible thing to erase.

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

From what this 2 stroke beginner has read, the 2 main problems that 

kill 2 strokes are mixture (heat) and lubrication.  (mixture)  Seems 

like the ideas here could go a long way toward solving the mixture 

problem, which would keep the heat and lubrication under control.  A 

pressure oiling system would bulletproof the lubrication problems.  

Seems like I've read advertising somewhere (outboard motor mfr ??) that 

2 stroke motors with pressure oiling systems have been built/are being 

built.  I realize that would run the weight up some and increase 

complexity, but again, seems like the increased reliability would be 

worth it and still lighter than a 4 stroke.  Also, modern fuel injection 

systems are extremely reliable.                         

Lar.                     Do not Archive.



Richard Pike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to 

 mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We 

 rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to 

 the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the 

 high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple 

 and he never had an engine out.



 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Dana Hague wrote:

> 

>

> At 08:08 PM 11/15/2007, Richard Girard wrote:

>

> The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center

> classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it

> wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability

> standards.

>

> Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I 

> can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system 

> would be prohibitive.

>

> From time to time I've played with the idea of developing an 

> electronic carburetor adjustment system for the small 2-strokes used 

> on PPG's (nice thing about a PPG is that an engine failure during 

> testing is normally a non event).  My thought was to use an oxygen 

> sensor in the exhaust to measure the air/fuel ratio, and some 

> electronics to drive an off the shelf R/C servo to adjust the main 

> mixture needle valve (most of these engines use Walbro pumper 

> carburetors).  You could program it to keep as far on the rich side 

> of a stoichiometric ratio as desired.  It would have to have a 

> failsafe mode, of course, to revert to a rich condition in the event 

> of failure of the O2 sensor, as well as during startup before the 

> sensor is hot enough to generate a signal (cars use heated sensors 

> for startup, until the exhaust is hot enough to keep the sensor hot, 

> but they require too much power for the lighting coil on a small 

> engine).

>

> On an engine with a float carburetor, it could control the mixture by 

> porting and metering manifold vacuum to the float bowl, similar to 

> how the altitude compensating carbs do it.

>

> FAR simpler than true fuel injection, and mechanically simple... but 

> unfortunately a little beyond my own electronics skills.

>

> Along those lines, has anybody tried the altitude compensating carbs 

> available for Rotax engines?  Unfortunately they don't compensate for 

> air temperature as well...

>

>                 -Dana

> -- 

>  Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has 

> enough power left to destroy America.

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

Engine freaks,



Here is a link to a very large two stroke engine.  It also happens to be the most efficient internal combustion engine currently produced.  It features pressure lubrication and direct injection.  It wont fit on a Kolb, but you could fit several Kolbs into it.



http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/



Do not archive

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

Last edited by R. Hankins on Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

 	  Jim ODay wrote: 	
		  



I "can afford a 4 stroke"; what type of 4 stroke can be used on the Firestar, or is that not an option?   



If 2 stoke is my only option, I have a 477, ...... is a dual ignition model more reliable?      Or is it the proper tuning that is the primary key to good service?



Thanks.



Jim 	




Hi Jim



The best engine for the Firestar appears to be the HKS 4 stroke engine.   Dave Bigelow installed an HKS engine on his Firestar to fly over very hostile terrain in Hawaii, and has had very good luck with it.  Although there is only one case of the HKS on a Kolb that I know of, Dave is very technically competent and has posted an about his setup on this forum:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=13013&highlight=hks



Trikes have been much faster to adopt the HKS engine, it is now the engine of choice on the more expensive Mid Sized trikes that are to small for a 912's.   The reliability, and smoothness of this engine is well known in the many trikes flying this engine.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

 	  Jim ODay wrote: 	
		  



If 2 stoke is my only option, I have a 477, ...... is a dual ignition model more reliable?      Or is it the proper tuning that is the primary key to good service?



Thanks.



Jim 	




I also fly a Trike with a 447 on it, and the main drawback of the 447 is the single ignition system.   With a single ignition 447, a fouled plug, bad wire, cap comming lose, etc. etc. etc. will all bring you out of the sky.  The engine might run on one cylender, but it wont produce a usable amount of power.



For a 2 stroke, a 503 is a more reliable choice because of the dual ignition systems.  It has a little extra power which is nice also   .   As far as more info on 2 strokes, I use the Rotax books, and never exceed the limits they set.  Another good thing is never run the 2 stroke at its full rated RPM.  If you look at the power curve, max torque occours well below MAX RPM, and gives much less abuse to the engine.  Try to get the last couple HP out of the engine with near limit RPM's, and your reliability and engine life well go WAY DOWN.



One good rule of thumb is to set your RPM for max power RPM MINUS 10 % static, which is close to 5900 RPM on a 503 and 447, and fine adjust from there according to the EGT's, and required power in the various phases of flight.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

No link, Roger.                      Lar.                 Do not Archive.



R. Hankins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Engine freaks,



 Here is a link to a very large two stroke engine.  It also happens to be the most efficient internal combustion engine currently produced.  It features pressure lubrication and direct injection.  It wont fit on a Kolb, but you could fit several Kolbs into it.



 Do not archive



 --------

 Roger in Oregon

 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146468#146468

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

AIN'T NO LINK HERE!

do not archive

On Nov 16, 2007, at 3:43 PM, R. Hankins wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Engine freaks,



 Here is a link to a very large two stroke engine.  It also happens  

 to be the most efficient internal combustion engine currently  

 produced.  It features pressure lubrication and direct injection.   

 It wont fit on a Kolb, but you could fit several Kolbs into it.



 Do not archive



 --------

 Roger in Oregon

 1992 KXP 503 - N1782C





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146468#146468

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

Jim, You see Rotax selling any ultralight engines with the R.A.V.E.

exhaust anymore? When those electronic fuel injection units have a

problem in a snowmobile, what's the worst that can happen? Then you

have the problem of powering them with a dynamo that's already

strapped for power output. The ignition systems use dedicated coils to

power them, where do you find the room to put in some more? Rotax goes

to great effort to engineer a light reliable engine. If they had a

fuel injection system of aircraft reliability and light weight, do you

think they would not offer it?

Yeah, all that snowmobile stuff is great, look at the difference

between the power of a 582 and a 583. more than 25% more power for the

583. How many successful 583 applications have you seen on an

airplane?

Hirth has been advertising fuel injection for around ten years, if it

were the next great panacea, don't you think you'd be seeing more of

them in the air?

Rick

On Nov 15, 2007 10:29 PM, Jim Baker <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%:

 > Years ago, the guy that now has the 582 FSII in the hangar adjacent to

 > mine had a Hummer with a Zenoah 250 and a Mikuni pumper carb on it. We

 > rigged a long length of aluminum tubing from next to the seat back to

 > the high speed needle so that he could turn it in or out to adjust the

 > high speed needle according to what the EGT was showing. Anvil simple

 > and he never had an engine out.

 >

 > Richard Pike

 > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Richard has a sterling idea...but let's extend this out a bit.

 http://www.acroname.com/robotics/info/ideas/continuous/continuous.html

 There are some really powerful 1/4 scale servos out there that would

 work nicely to control a needle. All one would need is the pulse

 width generating electronics to control the servo....about $6 in

 parts and $15 for the servo. An easy project, electronically. The

 harder part would be building a servo mount. Perhaps a gear drive

 set?

 And then this......

 > > The question of fuel injection came up at the Rotax Service Center

 > > classes at Lockwood this last spring. Eric Tucker was asked, why it

 > > wasn't used by Rotax. None available that meets Rotax reliability

 > > standards.

 Gee....hope Rotax doesn't hear about this.....

 "Two-stroke, twin-cylinder Rotax(R), Fuel Injection, R.A.V.E.TM exhaust;

 Water cooled"

 On what? SeaDoo GTi, Rotax powered.

 > > Unless you could adapt an existing automotive fuel injection system I

 > > can well imagine that the development cost for a reliable system would

 > > be prohibitive.

 Now, I'm sure you'll try to tell me that JetSki engines are apples

 and UL engines are oranges. Several other two stroke engine lines

 have fuel injection: Fuji, Hirth, Orbital (especially Orbital),

 Mercury, OMC, Bimota.....it's not hard to do, just not worth it in

 the small volume world of UL sales. THAT is what Eric really means

 but doesn't have the heart to say. I can't imagine that all these

 companies would front all that research and $$$$, risking customer

 loyalty, for an unreliable product....even Rotax.

 Jim Baker

 580.788.2779

 Elmore City, OK

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

In a message dated 11/16/2007 9:15:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hirth    has been advertising fuel injection for around ten years, if it

were the    next great panacea, don't you think you'd be seeing more of

them in the    air?



	


 

  

  

 It only Hirths for a moment   

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  

Hi Jim



The best engine for the Firestar appears to be the HKS 4 stroke engine.   Dave Bigelow installed an HKS engine on his Firestar to fly over very hostile terrain in Hawaii, and has had very good luck with it.  Although there is only one case of the HKS on a Kolb that I know of, Dave is very technically competent and has posted an about his setup on this forum:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=13013&highlight=hks



Trikes have been much faster to adopt the HKS engine, it is now the engine of choice on the more expensive Mid Sized trikes that are to small for a 912's.   The reliability, and smoothness of this engine is well known in the many trikes flying this engine.



Mike 	




Actually the best engine for the FS is the 503, but putting that aside....



(add lots of smileys here)



The HKS does seem to be becoming successful and I'm gratified to see the Oleniks selling and supporting it. I had Tom do the 150 hour's on a couple of my 503's and there aren't better guys to work with than them. I think they know everything about ligh a/c motors than anyone.



I'm really glad to see it working well out in the field, as it'll give a good alternative right in a sore spot - the 60 to 65hp range....



PS: Now I'm going to say something _truly_ heretical:

I've been an ower-operator of the 912S for about a year now and am already finding myself wishing I was back to running a 2-stroke, specifically the 503, again. 

I love the 912, it runs great and it gives no trouble, but the 503 is still simpler by a long ways to debug and maintain, and parts are so vastly, vastly cheaper (when you need them). And it also gives no trouble apart from the need for 150 hour's......



There, I said it - I'm a 2-stroke heretic not particularly impressed by the 4-stroke craze....



Alas, though, I've been told that Rotax is going to discontinue the 447 and 503 in a few years, so we may be stuck with the alternatives whether we like it or not .



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

Lucien, It's okay to be a heretic. If you have the time, put Airbike

Ace into Google and read about Paul's adventures. He's a member of EAA

chapter 88 and flies his 503 equipped Airbike like most people fly

Cessnas. The story of his trip to Oshkosh this year is in the latest

issue of Sport Pilot. His 503 has over 650 hours and I don't think he

does anything but run it regularly.

As for the HKS, I have one on my trike, runs like a champ and sips

gas. I did 25 landings yesterday afternoon in two hours of flying and

it burned 4 gallons. Can't wait to get one on a Kolb.

Rick

On Nov 17, 2007 9:16 AM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 JetPilot wrote:

 >

 > Hi Jim

 >

 > The best engine for the Firestar appears to be the HKS 4 stroke engine.   Dave Bigelow installed an HKS engine on his Firestar to fly over very hostile terrain in Hawaii, and has had very good luck with it.  Although there is only one case of the HKS on a Kolb that I know of, Dave is very technically competent and has posted an about his setup on this forum:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=13013&highlight=hks

 >

 > Trikes have been much faster to adopt the HKS engine, it is now the engine of choice on the more expensive Mid Sized trikes that are to small for a 912's.   The reliability, and smoothness of this engine is well known in the many trikes flying this engine.

 >

 > Mike

 Actually the best engine for the FS is the 503, but putting that aside....

 (add lots of smileys here)

 The HKS does seem to be becoming successful and I'm gratified to see the Oleniks selling and supporting it. I had Tom do the 150 hour's on a couple of my 503's and there aren't better guys to work with than them. I think they know everything about ligh a/c motors than anyone.

 I'm really glad to see it working well out in the field, as it'll give a good alternative right in a sore spot - the 60 to 65hp range....

 PS: Now I'm going to say something _truly_ heretical:

 I've been an ower-operator of the 912S for about a year now and am already finding myself wishing I was back to running a 2-stroke, specifically the 503, again.

 I love the 912, it runs great and it gives no trouble, but the 503 is still simpler by a long ways to debug and maintain, and parts are so vastly, vastly cheaper (when you need them). And it also gives no trouble apart from the need for 150 hour's......

 There, I said it - I'm a 2-stroke heretic not particularly impressed by the 4-stroke craze....

 Alas, though, I've been told that Rotax is going to discontinue the 447 and 503 in a few years, so we may be stuck with the alternatives whether we like it or not .

 LS

 --------

 LS

 FS II

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146627#146627

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: Re: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  

As for the HKS, I have one on my trike, runs like a champ and sips

gas. I did 25 landings yesterday afternoon in two hours of flying and

it burned 4 gallons. Can't wait to get one on a Kolb.



Rick

	




What kind of trike do you have Rick ?   I fly an Air Creations Racer, I would love the buggy with the HKS and KISS wing, but they are way expensive new !   There don't seem to be any used ones on the market yet, which also says a lot  



JettPilot

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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