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Really bad news....S
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slook(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

I want to know what happens after you spend big 

bucks and the independent engineer declares the design sound?



Steve



At 02:02 PM 4/10/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Why  don´t we stop all this rumors and guessing 

once and for all and hire an independent 

engineer to check the plane and the design really hard.

Is that so hard to do? We´ve invested good money 

on the kits, and now what? cant we afford a 

couple of u$s and get answers to our questions and fears? Come on !!!




	


Steve Look

Monticello, IL

601XL/Corvair

"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good flight planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the guidance of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another engineer who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I am not likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.



[quote] Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:38:57 -0400

 From: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Really bad news....S

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 

 True - and worth repeating again and again!!!

 

 

 "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:

 

 >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net>

 >

 >

 >lwhitlow wrote:

 >> 

 >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly

 >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then don't build one.

 >> If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.

 >> 

 >

 >

 >Worth repeating.

 >

 >--------

 >W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 >601XL Under Construction

 >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 &======

 

 

 

More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good flight planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the guidance of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another engineer who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I am not likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.

[quote] Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:38:57 -0400

 From: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Really bad news....S

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

 True - and worth repeating again and again!!!

 "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:

 >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net>

 >

 >

 >lwhitlow wrote:

 >> 

 >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly

 >> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then don't build one.

 >> If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.

 >> 

 >

 >

 >Worth repeating.

 >

 >--------

 >W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 >601XL Under Construction

 >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 &======

Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Nobody Joe. But as an experimental aircraft builder and not trained in AE I've chosen not to test major airframe modifications that haven't been proved to not negatively effect the structure and safety of the aircraft. 



You, Andy and anyone else who isn't an AE or at least has a very strong  understanding of the subject can do so at your own risk. It is simply my opinion that such an act by those without the training is foolish.



You should remember that there are many builders that don't regularly read this forum but do find things via Google searches and such who might come across the suggestion to start adding ribs and think, "Hey that's a great idea. I think I'll do that." My post was just a simple addition to notify such readers that it isn't necessarily that damn simple.

 	  Joemotis(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  In a message dated 4/10/2008 9:59:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I think    I'll stay with a AE's design and everyone else should as  well 	


 

 Who died and left you in charge of the design and modifications on the  Experimental aircraft that I am building????

 It is called Experimental for a reason, Gig. 

  

 Joe Motis

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

That is  / was a beautiful plane....... So sad... 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "William Dominguez" <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William Dominguez" <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com>

psm(at)att.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Frank,

 ... Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably 

 documented home built plane ....

 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive

 


	




The plane in question was factory built. Here is the web site advertising the sale of the plane:



http://www.nowakfamily.com/airplane.htm



--------

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics========================================================================bsp;          - MATRON================================================;       - List Contribution Web Site sp;                       &nb===================================================

 



_____________________________________________________________

Right on time. Click now for great project management software!

   [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 05:20:08PM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good

 flight planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the

 guidance of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another

 engineer who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I

 am not likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.


	


Flying, like everything else in life, involves risk. The measure of a safe

pilot is not in absolute avoidance of risk, but in management of risk to the

extent possible. We manage the risk of flying into a thunderstorm by getting

thorough weather briefings and using inflight resources such as XM weather

or Flight Watch. We manage the risk of fuel exhaustion by taking off with a

known quantity of fuel, leaning the mixture and reducing power when

practical, and keeping careful track of how long we've been flying. We

manage the risk of getting lost by having and using navigational instruments

and navaids, and good old pilotage and good, current charts.



There is a risk of the Zodiac's wings falling off, just as there is with any

aircraft. What I, at least, am looking for is information to help me manage

that risk. If the inflight breakups that have happened are due to pilot

error, I want to know what that error is so I can train to avoid it. If

they're due to poor construction, I'm comfortable that my aircraft will not

have that problem and/or that it can be discovered with a good inspection.

If they're due to inadequate design, the problem can be managed by a

suitable modification.



Even the best aircraft from the most proficient designers can have

structural design issues that only manifest themselves in unusual

circumstances. One need look no farther than the V-tail Bonanza to see that.

I'm not slamming Chris Heintz at all; if I wasn't confident in his ability,

I wouldn't have bought a Zodiac in the first place.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

Hi Jay & all,



On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Even the best aircraft from the most proficient designers can have

  structural design issues that only manifest themselves in unusual

  circumstances.


	


As a lurker following this thread, I am struck by this very fact.



One's response to this issue seems to hinge on a very personal thing:

Am I inclined to conclude inductively, based on incidents with

incompletely understood causes, that there is evidence of an overall

problem? Or am I the kind of person who likes to see specific reasons

and actively tries to avoid making conclusions based on this

incomplete information? From the first type of thinking, we have

actuaries and stockbrokers, while from the second, we have cavers and

astronauts.



Perhaps everyone should just agree that not enough is known at this

point, and everyone should stop trying to convince everyone else.



Ihab



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

Matt Ronics

Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 22

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Some of you people seem to be happily willing to go down in a 601XL just to spite everyone else.



Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes.  Burt Rutan flew out and inspected a Varieze that crashed on account of a structural failure.  As it turns out, the builder didn't follow the plans.  Read for yourself here:



http://www.ez.org/cp33-5.htm



Note the sentence: "Prior to this accident the VariEze type had amassed approximately 150,000 hours flying without in-flight airframe failure, even though many of the aircraft have relatively poor workmanship."



Has the 601XL fleet approached 150,000 hours?



If I designed a plane that someone said broke-up in flight I would personally go inspect it.  If I decided against going the first time, thinking it was a fluke, I would certainly go look at the second, or third, if such occured.  I admire Heintz's engineering ability but I find him irresponsible here.  Computers and sandbags don't always tell us everything we need to know.  



The Heintzs' shouldn't be leaving this up to the FAA to "investigate," they should investigate these aircraft themselves.  Why some of you stick your head in the sand while crapping on others, I do not know.

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

 	  Quote: 	
		   Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes.


	


They do:



NTSB Identification: LAX06LA105.

..

Accident occurred Wednesday, February 08, 2006 in Oakdale, CA

Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/26/2007

Aircraft: Hooker Zodiac 601XL, registration: N105RH

Injuries: 2 Fatal.

..

Investigators from the Safety Board, the FAA, and the kit manufacturer, a

party to the investigation, examined the wreckage at Plain Parts,

Sacramento, California, on March 16, 2006, and again on November 16, 2006



-- Craig

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

chain of events ; not cause and effect



On 4/10/08, steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Stall Spin from lack of fuel...???... NOT!

 I fly sailplanes often without fuel and it only spins when I make it...  go

 figure..

 SW

 ---

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

I probably shouldn't do this, but I've had all I can stand.



If there was a way to filter you out of the digest, believe me, I would do it.  Since I can't, I will just stop the Matronics Digest each day.  



In my opinion sir, you are a hazard to aviation, and homebuilders.



I emailed Mr. Draille a few weeks ago and asked him if he could start a 701/801 list because of the continual posts that you make.  Unfortunately, he didn't see the need.



So, I bid the list adieu.



To the many, many list members, I apologize for this tirade.  I appreciate the help you've given me and I hope that I've helped a few builders along the way.



I finished my 701 and it is flying successfully.  Might I add, it was built to the designers specifications.  I don't fancy myself an aeronautical enginer.  I could crash tomorrow, but it won't be because I thought I knew more than the designer.



I like the 701 design so well, that I'm building another.



Regards to the list.



Tommy Walker

N8701



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Don't apologize, there's a bunch of people here who are thinking the same thing as you. I'm also interested in possibly beefing up the wing.



No need to apologize for being reminded by 'by the book' types, that also don't have any experience, and are even less inquisitive, that only aeronautical engineers have brains and those brains are always 100% accurate at all times, and automatically trump anyone else who may happen to attempt to thing for quote]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy, Discussions, and Risks (Re: Really bad news...

Do you work for Zenith or something. Oh, that's right, you wanted to rent  out a fleet of 601xls.



If I didn't accept the risks of flying I wouldn't have gotten a pilot's license. I'm not some pu$$y girly-girl. I won't however take an unncessary risk. I'd like to be able to rely on the plane and let my piloting skills be the limiting factor, not the questionable strenth of the the wings. If I was going 250 mph in a dive in an XL, yes, I'd expect the wings to rip off, if I'm going 120 mph I'd like to know I have some margin of error, even under average piloting skills. Personally, you're getting annoying as hell. and I know it's because you have some sort of vested interest in this. That being the case, I now will be a prick. EVERYONE, PLEASE NOTICE GIG HAS A PERSONLA VESTED MONETARY INTEREST IN SQUASHING ANY AND ALL DOUBTS ABOUT THE WING INTEGRITY OF THE 601XL. Ok, Gig, you happy now. I excel at being an a$$hole. I grew up in an a$$hole and envoronment and love calling bullying JOs on their sh!t. Deal with it.



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		   	  lwhitlow wrote: 	
		  

If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly

If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then don't build one.

If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.

	




Worth repeating.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 06:30:03PM -0700, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Personally, you're getting annoying as hell. and I know it's because you

 have some sort of vested interest in this. That being the case, I no will

 be a prick.


	


You succeeded. That was totally uncalled-for.



We have a reasonable difference of opinion over the possibility of a

structural design issue with the Zodiac XL. Reasonable men can have those

and still respect each other. While I disagree with Gig's assessment, I

understand that it has a defensible basis.



You owe Gig an apology.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

For what it's worth, the 601XL that crashed in Virginia was being flown

by the seller, not the new owner.  It was "one last flight" before

delivering the plane.  According to the NTSB report less than 2

tablespoons of fuel was recovered from the entire fuel system, from

tanks to carburetor bowls.  To say it's anything other than running out

of fuel seems like nonsense to me.  Also fuel is not available at Sky

Bryce airport, where the plane was based.  Also, I don't remember the

exact numbers, but the hours on the plane since it had been fueled

indicated he would have been flying on fumes at take off.  



This pilot had a good reputation before the crash, known to be

meticulous and careful.  A cruel reminder that it only takes one

mistake.



Ron



------

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

maybe we can get a new 601 list for building questions only too

On 4/10/08, Tommy Walker <twalker(at)cableone.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I probably shouldn't do this, but I've had all I can stand.

 If there was a way to filter you out of the digest, believe me, I would do

 it.  Since I can't, I will just stop the Matronics Digest each day.

 In my opinion sir, you are a hazard to aviation, and homebuilders.

 I emailed Mr. Draille a few weeks ago and asked him if he could start a

 701/801 list because of the continual posts that you make.  Unfortunately,

 he didn't see the need.

 So, I bid the list adieu.

 To the many, many list members, I apologize for this tirade.  I appreciate

 the help you've given me and I hope that I've helped a few builders along

 the way.

 I finished my 701 and it is flying successfully.  Might I add, it was built

 to the designers specifications.  I don't fancy myself an aeronautical

 enginer.  I could crash tomorrow, but it won't be because I thought I knew

 more than the designer.

 I like the 701 design so well, that I'm building another.

 Regards to the list.

 Tommy Walker

 N8701

 ashontz wrote:

 > Don't apologize, there's a bunch of people here who are thinking the same

 thing as you. I'm also interested in possibly beefing up the wing.

 >

 > No need to apologize for being reminded by 'by the book' types, that also

 don't have any experience, and are even less inquisitive, that only

 aeronautical engineers have brains and those brains are always 100% accurate

 at all times, and automatically trump anyone else who may happen to attempt

 to thing for quote]

 --------

 Tommy Walker

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176046#176046

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Perhaps the anonymity of sitting behind a keyboard rather than face to face with a person makes some of you feel you can treat others on the list in a disrespectful manner.  When people like Tommy Walker are driven by disgust to want to leave the list and gentlemen like Gig Giacona are treated in such a manner I wonder how long our list can survive before no one wants to participate.  I'm also concerned for the newer members who are looking to those of us who been around for awhile for advice and leadership.  What kind of example are we setting?



I believe that everyone on this list should feel free to express their opinion and those that do not agree are welcome to respectfully disagree.  When we start calling names and making accusations we accomplish nothing.  For me, I would like to hear what people have to say after which I will draw my own conclusions.



Tim Juhl



Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

This was exactly my point- a good pilot ran out of fuel, and then apparently stalled the aircraft.  I found this accidnet to be one of the most frustrating and scariest, because it was was of the "there but for the grace of God go I" variety.

[quote] Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:10:43 -0700

 From: rsteele(at)rjsit.com

 Subject: RE: Really bad news....S

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: rsteele(at)rjsit.com

 For what it's worth, the 601XL that crashed in Virginia was being flown

 by the seller, not the new owner. It was "one last flight" before

 delivering the plane. According to the NTSB report less than 2

 tablespoons of fuel was recovered from the entire fuel system, from

 tanks to carburetor bowls. To say it's anything other than running out

 of fuel seems like nonsense to me. Also fuel is not available at Sky

 Bryce airport, where the plane was based. Also, I don't remember the

 exact numbers, but the hours on the plane since it had been fueled

 indicated he would have been flying on fumes at take off. 

 This pilot had a good reputation before the crash, known to be

 meticulous and careful. A cruel reminder that it only takes one

 mistake.

 Ron

 ------

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

Tim,  I agree....

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy, Discussions, and Risks (Re: Really bad news...

What the hell are you talking about Andy? Other than the purchase of the kit I have no vested interest in Zenith and I have never that I can remember ever discussed a fleet of 601XLs with anyone. 



I'm beginning to wonder if you don't have some interest in discrediting the 601 design.



You seem to be to quick to personally attack someone that simply disagrees with you. And now you've gotten to the point of making stuff up to further your attacks.



I will point you to the List Usage Guidelines that I feel your last message violated.



 "Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone 

polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack 

other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously 

controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that 

will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. "

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  EVERYONE, PLEASE NOTICE GIG HAS A PERSONLA VESTED MONETARY INTEREST IN SQUASHING ANY AND ALL DOUBTS ABOUT THE WING INTEGRITY OF THE 601XL.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

I could not agree more.  Manage the risk, mitigate the risk, but don't just glibly say that risk is part of building and flying, and then zoom to your fate.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:42:50 -0500

 From: jmaynard(at)conmicro.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Really bad news....S

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

 On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 05:20:08PM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:

 > OTOH, if you don't attempt to mitigate the known risks, such as by good

 > flight planning, and thorough training, and by building according to the

 > guidance of experienced engineers, in this case Chris Heintz, or another

 > engineer who does a thorough analysis before you modify a critical part, I

 > am not likely to have to share the skies with you for very long.

 Flying, like everything else in life, involves risk. The measure of a safe

 pilot is not in absolute avoidance of risk, but in management of risk to the

 extent possible. We manage the risk of flying into a thunderstorm by getting

 thorough weather briefings and using inflight resources such as XM weather

 or Flight Watch. We manage the risk of fuel exhaustion by taking off with a

 known quantity of fuel, leaning the mixture and reducing power when

 practical, and keeping careful track of how long we've been flying. We

 manage the risk of getting lost by having and using navigational instruments

 and navaids, and good old pilotage and good, current charts.

 There is a risk of the Zodiac's wings falling off, just as there is with any

 aircraft. What I, at least, am looking for is information to help me manage

 that risk. If the inflight breakups that have happened are due to pilot

 error, I want to know what that error is so I can train to avoid it. If

 they're due to poor construction, I'm comfortable that my aircraft will not

 have that problem and/or that it can be discovered with a good inspection.

 If they're due to inadequate design, the problem can be managed by a

 suitable modification.

 Even the best aircraft from the most proficient designers can have

 structural design issues that only manifest themselves in unusual

 circumstances. One need look no farther than the V-tail Bonanza to see that.

 I'm not slamming Chris Heintz at all; if I wasn't confident in his ability,

 I wouldn't have bought a Zodiac in the first place.

 -- 

 Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

 http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

 Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

 AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)> 

Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.

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