Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jdalton77(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:32 am    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ...
 
His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets ... are ROUND.  Yes, he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out with a #30 bit.
 
Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR would you re-do the entire rudder?
 


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
jjessen(at)rcn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

Other than looks, I doubt it'd make a difference.  I'd call Van's and verify, then if no difference, leave it.  On the other hand, I'm probably going to rebuild my VS because I hammered on it so hard that it looks like I used it in a destruction derby. 
 
John Jessen
  ~328 (and one who has no knowledge really about such things, but that would be my .02 worth.)
 
do not archive

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Dalton
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:30 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you do?

So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ...
 
His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets ... are ROUND.  Yes, he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out with a #30 bit.
 
Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR would you re-do the entire rudder?
 


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:40 am    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

Is this a joke? Sorry! Maybe a mental exercise.
I can't wait to hear John's (0.02) about this one.

The size of the rivets in the thin skin is perhaps the biggest issue. After
that, if using 470 rivets with the manufactured head sticking out of only
one side, each one should have been reversed in direction to counteract the
air deflection off the proud manufactured heads. There are several older
planes that have rivets the size of marbles sticking out of their skins, but
not an RV. I guess you could use the rudder as a drag/dive brake.

With that said, chock it up to experience, practice and do it again, it will
only come out better each time you do it over. You got to set a high
standard from the start. It is kinda fun anyway.

Just my thoughts.

Do not archive.

Jg.
Quote:
From: "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would
you do?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:56 -0500

So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....

His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.
The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent
and look great. The manufactured head of the rivets .... are ROUND. Yes,
he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets. Worse yet, the
rivets are -4, not -3. In other words, the holes are already drilled out
with a #30 bit.

Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and
replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR
would you re-do the entire rudder?


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
rv10es(at)earthlink.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

I would leave it if it looks OK, you have enough edge distance and do not mind the RV10 ramp inspectors at air shows.
Do not archive

rob kermanj
rv10es(at)earthlink.net (rv10es(at)earthlink.net)



On Feb 28, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Jeff Dalton wrote:
Quote:
So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....
 
His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets ... are ROUND.  Yes, he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out with a #30 bit.
 
Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR would you re-do the entire rudder?
 


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

First and foremost I do not want to sound too harsh with my original
comment...I am sorry.

Here is the deal the way I see it.

If you are not the designer or a aeronautical engineer why would you change
the recipe? All this stuff(DOUBTS) we do not have a definitive answer. YOu
are only a test pilot to some degree, as other have mostly the same plane,
but yours now with the modification will be different, so you can throw away
the test flights of all others and all the experience of other who continue
to fly.

So when you are flying your new RV 10 and hopefully you are in tuned to what
you hear and what you feel, your plane sounds different or feels
different...what will your mind do. Hopefully it will try to figure out
what is going on. Now add on all the little steps you skipped, the
directions you did not follow, the things you could have done better. Now
add all those things into you figuring. Overload, worse, you freeze. You
make a bad decision or you put it down in an unfriendly area or make a bad
landing because you are overwhelmed.

This is a no brainer.

Minimize the potential conflicts.

JG.

Do Not Archive


Quote:
From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what
would you do?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:39:54 -0800



Is this a joke? Sorry! Maybe a mental exercise.
I can't wait to hear John's (0.02) about this one.

The size of the rivets in the thin skin is perhaps the biggest issue.
After that, if using 470 rivets with the manufactured head sticking out of
only one side, each one should have been reversed in direction to
counteract the air deflection off the proud manufactured heads. There are
several older planes that have rivets the size of marbles sticking out of
their skins, but not an RV. I guess you could use the rudder as a
drag/dive brake.

With that said, chock it up to experience, practice and do it again, it
will only come out better each time you do it over. You got to set a high
standard from the start. It is kinda fun anyway.

Just my thoughts.

Do not archive.

Jg.
>From: "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
>Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would
>you do?
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:56 -0500
>
>So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....
>
>His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.
>The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent
>and look great. The manufactured head of the rivets .... are ROUND. Yes,
>he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets. Worse yet, the
>rivets are -4, not -3. In other words, the holes are already drilled out
>with a #30 bit.
>
>Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and
>replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR
>would you re-do the entire rudder?

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List



- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

I forgot the issue of them being countersunk holes with non matching rivets.
You can drill out each rivet perfectly, but the thin skin has expanded
around the oversize rivets..it took more energy to crush them. You guys are
really worrying me.

WE had an accident sometime ago in the gliding community. It dealt with a
pilot losing elevator control. It turned out that the tape holding the
mylar gap seal had peeled up and caused the airflow to seperate enough so
that the air did not come back down on the elevator, rendering it
ineffective. We fly with parachuttes, but he wasn't high enough to use it.
That is how a simple issue can have huge implications. This doesn't seem
simple to me.

This is troubling...you guys are flying over my house. I need to first get
a TFR over my home and then go for a permanent flight restriction. Maybe a
concrete dome embrella. And I was wondering whether this was a joke.

Call Van's but talk to a designer not builders support.

JG.
Quote:
From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>
Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what
would you do?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:39:54 -0800



Is this a joke? Sorry! Maybe a mental exercise.
I can't wait to hear John's (0.02) about this one.

The size of the rivets in the thin skin is perhaps the biggest issue.
After that, if using 470 rivets with the manufactured head sticking out of
only one side, each one should have been reversed in direction to
counteract the air deflection off the proud manufactured heads. There are
several older planes that have rivets the size of marbles sticking out of
their skins, but not an RV. I guess you could use the rudder as a
drag/dive brake.

With that said, chock it up to experience, practice and do it again, it
will only come out better each time you do it over. You got to set a high
standard from the start. It is kinda fun anyway.

Just my thoughts.

Do not archive.

Jg.
>From: "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>
>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
>Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would
>you do?
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:56 -0500
>
>So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....
>
>His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.
>The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent
>and look great. The manufactured head of the rivets .... are ROUND. Yes,
>he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets. Worse yet, the
>rivets are -4, not -3. In other words, the holes are already drilled out
>with a #30 bit.
>
>Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and
>replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR
>would you re-do the entire rudder?

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List



- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
bsponcil(at)belinblank.or
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

 
I'd call Vans to see what they say before you go rebuilding the rudder.
 
I'm  guessing that having 470s on the trailing edge won't make much of a difference. Have you ever taken a look at a DC-3? There are round rivet heads ALL OVER that thing. I realize they aren't the same but still.....
 
Post Vans reply if you call....
 
 
-Brian
 
N211BD
#40497
[quote] ---


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

What I tend to find, is any un-intentional deviation from the plans tends to nag at you. It's an uncertainty and therefore erosion of confidence. Not something I like in the back of my mind when I go flying, whether a minor issue or major issue it's all cumulative in the end.  JG's point,  "I forgot the issue of them being countersunk holes with non matching rivets.
  You can drill out each rivet perfectly, but the thin skin has expanded
around the oversize rivets..it took more energy to crush them" is a very good reason to replace.
John 40315
do not archive
[quote] ---


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

Not sure whether this post is serious . . .
 
But if it is, put the rudder aside.  Start work on the rest of the kit, there is plenty to do.  As you gain more experience, mull over it for a while and come to fully understand the cost of a rudder in the grander scheme of things, you will come to a conclusion that you are happy with.  This is not a problem you need to solve today.
 
As John  says, just $0.146 worth - Ozzy exchange rate ;-< 
 
cheers,
Ron
Riveting fuse side skins. 
 
do not archive
[quote] --


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
jjessen(at)rcn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

This is the best advice from all of us, but do call Van's.  I'm sure they'll give the standard "just move on" statement. 
 
I suspect, as Ron is implying, that when you are whipping out the parts towards the end, the rudder will look dead simple and you'll come back to it knowing what you want.  I know that I'll rebuild my VS since I now know so much more about building, am much more skilled and can see doing that piece over two or three long days, instead of the month it took me at first.  The rudder is a little more complex, but it might beat getting RV-10 builder snickers at OSH.  Or, you could turn it into the latest speed mod.  You know, reverse dimples in golf balls!  Something like that. 
 
John Jessen
  ~328 (Master Builder Self Designate)
 
do not archive

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:51 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you do?

Not sure whether this post is serious . . .
 
But if it is, put the rudder aside.  Start work on the rest of the kit, there is plenty to do.  As you gain more experience, mull over it for a while and come to fully understand the cost of a rudder in the grander scheme of things, you will come to a conclusion that you are happy with.  This is not a problem you need to solve today.
 
As John  says, just $0.146 worth - Ozzy exchange rate ;-< 
 
cheers,
Ron
Riveting fuse side skins. 
 
do not archive
[quote] --


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d Reply with quote

Jeff,
 
I don't see the #4 rivet size as being a problem, however, the universal head in a countersunk hole is a problem.  It reduces the bearing area to practically nothing as the rivet can't fill the countersunk hole.
 
I suggest drilling out the holes.  If the results don't look good than order new parts.
 
Niko
40188

---


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group