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Flight Simulator
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

Has anybody got experience with MS Flight Simulator 2004?

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL


Quote:
Date: Wed C 7 Jan 2009 22:57:57 +0100
From: michel(at)online.no
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Flight Simulator

> From: 815TL [lawrenceaw(at)corning.com]
> Take The MS flight sim back and in invest in x-plane. It is a much C much better
> simulator in my opinion. I have used both C and x-plane looks better C higher frame
> rate C and feels more 'real'.

Well C X-Plane feels more real C that's for sure. But MS FS is "nicer" in the way that it has many fine eye-candy features and a very large existing database of airfields and sceneries.

The difference in the simulators models is that MS FS use what can be called "look-up tables." When you build an aircraft C you enter the stall speed C Vne C etc. and for speeds in-between C the values are interpolated.

X-Plane C on the other hand C uses what is called "blade theory." It takes any part of the aircraft into an airfoil with own lift C drag and moment. Then it goes through each computation for each frame refresh.

When you build an aircraft in X-Plane C you have to enter what you think is the closest model then you go and fly. If the aircraft then stalls at the speed intended then you are very lucky! You can then work with the actual airfoil C the wash-out C the CoG C learn about aviation and see how the model changes.

I often work with X-Plane C PlaneMaker and AirfoilMaker programs open at the same time. Tiny adjustments C testing C back to the drawing board ... you get the picture!

With MS FS C if you enter a value for stall speed C the aircraft will always stall exactly at that speed!

X-Plane is in fact a digital wind tunnel. Even small change in the step of the fuselage of a seaplane makes great difference. It is truly a wind (and water) modeller.

However C two warnings about simulators.

- None of them can simulate properly a spin. That is because data about airfoil is known for "normal" angles; not when the apparent wind meets the wing and perhaps an angle of 80 degrees and certainly not when e.g. because of the spinning motion C one of the horizontal stabs is in the "shade" of the tail. The only way to simulate that is with Computerized Fluid Dynamics (CFD) and that just can't be done in real time.

- You can set the angle of view of the screen as you want. But if you do a bit of geometry C in order to match the actual angle the screen makes and your perspective view of everything around you C the angle should be put to perhaps 25 or 30 degrees and that's too little to be able to see the panel.

Imagine you are in your Kitfox and you hold at arm's length a piece of cardboard that represents the frame of your screen when you are at home. You will see only a tiny part of the panel and landing with only that angle of view would be suicide.

Otherwise C it's fun C harmless and you are all welcomed to use my or Andrew's model.

Cheers C
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C
&gt --> <a href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

Quote:
orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
&gtlt;a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matro=

[quote]
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Quote:
[b]


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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

I have 2004 also. Whats your question and I MAY be of some use lol..

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Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
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peteohms



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

Noel,

How about sending me a copy of your fixed up FS 9 kitfox?

Pete
apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net (apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net)

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

a.k.a. FS – 9 the one with the better description of waterways and all the free planes on the net??

Never heard of it! J

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:01 PM
To: kitfox matronics
Subject: RE: Re: Flight Simulator



Has anybody got experience with MS Flight Simulator 2004?

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL




> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 22:57:57 +0100
> From: michel(at)online.no
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Flight Simulator
>
> > From: 815TL [lawrenceaw(at)corning.com]
> > Take The MS flight sim back and in invest in x-plane. It is a much, much better
> > simulator in my opinion. I have used both, and x-plane looks better, higher frame
> > rate, and feels more 'real'.
>
> Well, X-Plane feels more real, that's for sure. But MS FS is "nicer" in the way that it has many fine eye-candy features and a very large existing database of airfields and sceneries.
>
> The difference in the simulators models is that MS FS use what can be called "look-up tables." When you build an aircraft, you enter the stall speed, Vne, etc. and for speeds in-between, the values are interpolated.
>
> X-Plane, on the other hand, uses what is called "blade theory." It takes any part of the aircraft into an airfoil with own lift, drag and moment. Then it goes through each computation for each frame refresh.
>
> When you build an aircraft in X-Plane, you have to enter what you think is the closest model then you go and fly. If the aircraft then stalls at the speed intended then you are very lucky! You can then work with the actual airfoil, the wash-out, the CoG, learn about aviation and see how the model changes.
>
> I often work with X-Plane, PlaneMaker and AirfoilMaker programs open at the same time. Tiny adjustments, testing, back to the drawing board ... you get the picture!
>
> With MS FS, if you enter a value for stall speed, the aircraft will always stall exactly at that speed!
>
> X-Plane is in fact a digital wind tunnel. Even small change in the step of the fuselage of a seaplane makes great difference. It is truly a wind (and water) modeller.
>
> However, two warnings about simulators.
>
> - None of them can simulate properly a spin. That is because data about airfoil is known for "normal" angles; not when the apparent wind meets the wing and perhaps an angle of 80 degrees and certainly not when e.g. because of the spinning motion, one of the horizontal stabs is in the "shade" of the tail. The only way to simulate that is with Computerized Fluid Dynamics (CFD) and that just can't be done in real time.
>
> - You can set the angle of view of the screen as you want. But if you do a bit of geometry, in order to match the actual angle the screen makes and your perspective view of everything around you, the angle should be put to perhaps 25 or 30 degrees and that's too little to be able to see the panel.
>
> Imagine you are in your Kitfox and you hold at arm's length a piece of cardboard that represents the frame of your screen when you are at home. You will see only a tiny part of the panel and landing with only that angle of view would be suicide.
>
> Otherwise, it's fun, harmless and you are all welcomed to use my or Andrew's model.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
> Do not archive
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> --> <a href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
&gtlt;a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matro=
>
> </b></font></pre></body></html>
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

Lenoard C I am considering buying the MS 2004 Simulator on recommendation of a friend. He said it takes a very powerful computer to run the X and he says his 2004 suits him just fine. Are you satisfied with yours? What joy stick would you recommend and someone mentioned rudder pedals. I didn't know you could use rudder pedals with a simulator. Of course the last simulator I tried was on a Tandy computer. 

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL


Quote:
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flight Simulator
From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com
Date: Wed C 7 Jan 2009 16:42:20 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

I have 2004 also. Whats your question and I MAY be of some use lol..

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.

hander outer of humorless darwin awards




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223457#223457



=======================

[quote]


Quote:
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Michel



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:36 am    Post subject: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

Quote:
From: Bob Brennan [matronics(at)bob.brennan.name]
Thanks Michel, that is a glowing endorsement for X-plane. Now can you fold
the wings on your Kitfox model and trailer it backwards at different angles?
(just kidding!)

Actually, you could. Variable geometry wings is provided. And that's the fun of X-Plane; make all kind of crazy craft.

In 2001, with my group of virtual X-Plane pilots, I made a landsailer. (Well, actually, I made a sailboat first, ... then moved on land! Smile

Then I organized online races. To explain how to "fly" those craft, I made a web page:
http://home.online.no/~michel/esp/Landsailer/training.html

Funny, isn't it? It gets even funnier when you get on mountainous terrain and gravity fights the airfoil effect.

And if you're really into weird stuff, you can try the same but using Mars atmosphere! In fact ... you can make your own atmosphere.

Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

Problem solved!

The "expert" from M$ spent about a half hour with me on the phone and had no
idea what was wrong except that he thought it must be the video card
installation. I was promised another "escalation" but that won't be
necessary now.

I called the good people at BFG Nvidea and described my setup - the tech
said immediately that the motherboard chipset I was replacing and the card I
bought both run on the PCI bus, and that 2-3 frames per second was the best
I could expect over a PCI bus. We explored a bit and found I have PCI
express (never heard of it!) available so I returned the PCI card for a PCIe
card, more features and $40 cheaper(!), and installed it.

Now at default settings I get 30 fps and at Ulta-high and everything turned
on I get a hardly noticeable drop to 15 fps. Finally, I can fly!

Thanks to all who chipped in to help and hopefully this will help anyone
else wanting to use FSX - be sure your PC supports PCI "express"

Can't wait to try X-Plane on the new card!

Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Flight Simulator Reply with quote

[quote="patreilly43(at)hotmail.co"]Lenoard C I am considering buying the MS�2004 Simulator on recommendation of a friend. He said it takes a very powerful computer to run the X and he says his 2004 suits him just fine. Are you satisfied with yours? What joy stick would you recommend and someone mentioned rudder pedals. I didn't know you could use rudder pedals with a simulator. Of course the last simulator I tried was on a Tandy computer.�

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL


Quote:
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flight Simulator
From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com
Date: Wed C 7 Jan 2009 16:42:20 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000>

I have 2004 also. Whats your question and I MAY be of some use lol..

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.

hander outer of humorless darwin awards




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223457#223457



=======================

Quote:



Quote:
[b]


I did not see much difference in the flight models betweenthe two. The most notable difference is in the scenery. FS 2004 (or FS9) will suit most peopel who just want to fly and not look at the scenery.. If I want to see what the country side really looks like I jump in the plane. The scenery for my area of Alaska has not improved much since the old sim on apple computers showing stick figures for trees.

I use the Saitec X52 joy stick and throttle and CH pro USB rudder pedals.

You can get a yoke and throttle set up for about the same price as the X52, and you dont have to try and remember what you programed all the little buttons for. I prefer a stick to the yolk, but that is just personal preference.

Some people have gone totaly nutts with flight siming, and have built scale F16 cockpits that you sit in and have all instruments functioning right down to the G suit and helmet.


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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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