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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

For those of you who followed the past discussions we had about

learning to fly in an RV-10, I've gotten to see first-hand some of

what happens to new pilots again, to refresh my memory.  Recently,

my wife and another lady have been flight training.  One has about

20 hours now, and one has 40+.  They both flew a rental Cessna 152

for the first 90% of the hours.  I'd been hemming and hawing on what

to do for a plane, because I hated the idea of paying $76-80/hr wet

for a stinkin' C-152.  That's a ripoff.  But, they were flying that

plane and learning.  Then one day after they had about the

above mentioned hours, we jumped in the RV-10 and I gave them a

shot at flying that plane.  It was very easy to see how they

were instantly over their head...although the one with 40 hours

had a better handle on the airplane, of course.  Things just

come at you too fast, and in fact, one of the instructors that

we've now had them spending time with usually insists on full-stop

landings for a good amount of time too, because there is too

much in rapid-fire when you try to do touch-n-go's early on.



Recently they've both transitioned into a different airplane.  Get

this.... I found a place that I can lease a Cherokee 140 Cruiser

(160hp) for $32/hr dry + insurance.  I only need to hangar the

airplane and fill it with fuel and insure it.  The insurance for

myself, the 2 students, and an "open policy" allowing anyone

with 250 hours to fly it, was $914/yr...and of course we get 90%

credit back for the unused months when we return the plane.  So,

it was a no-brainer to take that deal, and I wish I'd have

started that way when they wanted to learn how to fly.  That plane

is a little better for them to learn in, too.  Transitioning

to the plane didn't take too long, however it's still a very

forgiving plane that is not as hard to stay behind as the RV-10.

Not only that, but it was a good plane for me to self-learn how

to be comfortable in the right seat.  So I've been putting some

time in lately with that plane.  There are things that are easier

in my RV-10...like you don't have to set a DG, you have electric

flaps and trim, the spring gear makes for quiet touchdowns,

and things like that.  But from a perspective on how rapid-fire

things go in the pattern, it is much much faster.  Yesterday I

got back in my own left seat and did a couple landings just to

see the comparison, and it was really something to be able to

take off, climb out, and be at pattern altitude before I even

hit the downwind leg.  When my wife tried doing a few patterns

in the RV-10, by the time her brain caught up to the climb

and turn, we'd be 600-700' high on downwind....things just

happened way too fast.  Anyway, it's been quite the experience

watching 2 new pilots develop.  I think that once a person has

obtained a certificate, if they extended their training a bit

into the RV-10, it wouldn't be such a bad experience.   The one

with 40-45 hours is much closer to being able to stay in front

of the airplane.



If someone were to insist on learning in their RV-10, I'd kind

of think that perhaps a way to go about it would be to just

expect that you're going to do more like 30-40 hours of dual

up front, followed by some solo work.  If you have a good

instructor in there with you, it wouldn't be un-do-able, but it

will definitely hinder your rate of learning to have that much

going on in the beginning, so planning accordingly would

be good.  My best guess is that whereas 40 hours would be a

minimum for private pilot, to learn to fly in an RV-10 might

take that same person more like 60 hours.  If you would have

taken 60 hours, maybe it will take you 80 now.  So I would

say it might be better for your airplane and it's engine to

just rent/lease/buy something cheap to get the training done in,

and then move on from there...still spending a little more

dual with the instructor.  If you noticed, I paid less than

$1000 for the insurance for those 2 new pilots, in a ~$30,000

airplane.  That would be cheaper than spending the additional

THOUSANDS if I could even find a place to insure a student in

mine.  Also, since I have that lease deal worked out, my wife

can now put in a bunch of time of her own if she wants, and

keep flying and logging time after she gets a certificate, until

she builds the minimum of maybe 100 hours before any company

would even touch her for the RV-10. (there was a slight chance

that with 100 hours I could get insurance for $1000 or more

add-on...but most companies won't touch you without 250)



Sorry for the long story, but I'm sitting in a terminal building

hanging out while one of them is out with the instructor, so

it's just on my mind.



The other thing on my mind is....this Cherokee only has a

2 place intercom.  We sometimes stuff 3 (or maybe will even

try 2 kids) into the back.  So I need to pick up a cheap

portable intercom. I used to own a Flightcom, and I'm hoping

to find something like a used Flightcom IIsi.  Anyone have one

that they aren't using that they'd want to sell for a decent

price?



-- 

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Tim, I might have one for you.  It has been so long since I have used it, I

don't remember the make and model.  I will try to swing by the hanger

tonight.  I don't have a need for it (my plane and the club planes all have

4 place now), and will let you have it cheap.....



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

brenthumphreys

Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 21

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Tim



I have a 4 place portable intercom just sitting around here collecting

dust.  I would be willing to loan It out indefinitely if you would like

to use it.



Also, I don't have any way to fly down here while I am building my -10.

I would be very interested in a lease arrangement like what you have.

Did you arrange it through a company or an individual?



I have a small chance of something similar for a Warrior.  It belongs to

the widow of one of our chapter members.  She doesn't want to sell, so

we may be able to work something out that is mutually beneficial.



-- 

Brent Humphreys

RV-10 Tailcone

Do not archive

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 881
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Trainin

Tim, 

Interesting observations. Many people forget the "extra" costs, like insurance, when they're making these decisions. Of course, so did you, sort of! Around here (San Francisco Bay area), the "...all I needed to do was provide a hangar..." would be a real deal breaker, as people grow old and die waiting for their names to come up on hangar waiting lists!



On your first right-seat landings, did you tend to land on the right side of the runway centerline? Just curious, it's very common, in my experience.



As to the intercom: Since all you need is a mixer, have you thought about building your own? If you're handy with a soldering iron, you can do it in one evening. The most expensive parts are the jacks and plugs; the integrated circuits are dirt cheap these days.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Hi Brent,

I think I'm set on the intercom now, but that is really great of you

to offer it!



I got my plane lined up through a nearby FBO owner who runs a leasing

company.  I'll shoot you the info off-list.  I know they also have

a Cessna 172 for $35/hr right now.  My thought would be if you can

ask around to all the local airports, my guess is someone

knows someone who does leasebacks and leases.  This guy's place

was actually an aircraft leasing operation.  So, you may be

able to find one local to you.  I definitely like the terms,

in my situation.  It is also handy to have them fairly local, as

they are willing to pay for the maintenance and oil changes if

we bring it to them too.  So, there's benefit to staying local.

If you were far away, I'd say maybe it would be easier to build

a 4 or 5 person partnership.  My guess is there are lots and

lots of people these days who'd love to participate...it's just

tough to find one willing to start it all off.



Oh, and on insurance, I found it was actually BETTER not to list

individually all of the pilots.  If you list more than 3 pilots,

they lock the insurance to named pilots only.  If you left it at

3 you could ask for an open policy with time limitations and then

could automatically cover a few additional people.  Interesting

how it all worked out.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Brent P. Humphreys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Tim

 

 I have a 4 place portable intercom just sitting around here collecting

 dust.  I would be willing to loan It out indefinitely if you would like

 to use it.

 

 Also, I don't have any way to fly down here while I am building my -10.

 I would be very interested in a lease arrangement like what you have.

 Did you arrange it through a company or an individual?

 

 I have a small chance of something similar for a Warrior.  It belongs to

 the widow of one of our chapter members.  She doesn't want to sell, so

 we may be able to work something out that is mutually beneficial.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Well now you done got me curious.  I'll get the policy and check it  

out.  I did make my intentions known to the agent, and he does have  

lots of experience, but i'll have to ask this specific question.   

Thanks for bringing it up here! Ain't these lists handy for helping  

out?!

Tim

Do not archive



On May 25, 2009, at 7:10 PM, "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tim,



 I agree with the left hand on the throttle (and, in Cessnas, trim)  

 thing. I attributed it to being right handed.



 I would urge caution about flying under an "open pilot" clause. Read  

 the policy very carefully, what you're looking for is a "waiver of  

 subrogation". Most policies don't have one. What this means is that  

 if there's damage to the airplane (or a person), the insurance  

 company will pay the claim - but they reserve the right to sue the  

 pilot who was flying to get their money back, unless he or she is a  

 "named insured", not just on the open pilot clause. In fact, our  

 policy specifically states that we will do nothing to hinder, and  

 will help the insurance company, with their lawsuit against the  

 person.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 45331#245331

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

I agree almost completely with your conclusions, Tim.  Having spent  

the last year going from first solo through 95 RV-10 hours (250TT), it  

is all fairly fresh in my mind.  I definitely would recommend getting  

something that is easier to stay on top of while getting going.  I  

don't know how the RV-10 landing gear holds up under initial training,  

but I know that it is hard to hurt the gear on a 172, and I know I put  

it through its paces starting out.  Once you get fairly comfortable  

flying in general, the -10 isn't hard to stick with in the pattern,  

and is even easier in some respects, especially with the flaps and  

trim on the stick.  It is certainly hard to get cheaper to operate  

than a C152 or a Cherokee, especially when counting the insurance costs.



One thing I will add, however, is that I think it is much easier to  

get comfortable right seat in the -10 than in the other planes  

mentioned.  I'm not sure if it's the stick over the yoke or the better  

visibility or what, but I have done the same number of landings right  

seat in the -10 and the 172 and the Cherokee 180, and I can land the  

-10 much much better than the other two.  Tim, have you flown any  

right seat in the -10?



do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



On May 25, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Tim Olson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 For those of you who followed the past discussions we had about

 learning to fly in an RV-10, I've gotten to see first-hand some of

 what happens to new pilots again, to refresh my memory.  Recently,

 my wife and another lady have been flight training.  One has about

 20 hours now, and one has 40+.  They both flew a rental Cessna 152

 for the first 90% of the hours.  I'd been hemming and hawing on what

 to do for a plane, because I hated the idea of paying $76-80/hr wet

 for a stinkin' C-152.  That's a ripoff.  But, they were flying that

 plane and learning.  Then one day after they had about the

 above mentioned hours, we jumped in the RV-10 and I gave them a

 shot at flying that plane.  It was very easy to see how they

 were instantly over their head...although the one with 40 hours

 had a better handle on the airplane, of course.  Things just

 come at you too fast, and in fact, one of the instructors that

 we've now had them spending time with usually insists on full-stop

 landings for a good amount of time too, because there is too

 much in rapid-fire when you try to do touch-n-go's early on.



 Recently they've both transitioned into a different airplane.  Get

 this.... I found a place that I can lease a Cherokee 140 Cruiser

 (160hp) for $32/hr dry + insurance.  I only need to hangar the

 airplane and fill it with fuel and insure it.  The insurance for

 myself, the 2 students, and an "open policy" allowing anyone

 with 250 hours to fly it, was $914/yr...and of course we get 90%

 credit back for the unused months when we return the plane.  So,

 it was a no-brainer to take that deal, and I wish I'd have

 started that way when they wanted to learn how to fly.  That plane

 is a little better for them to learn in, too.  Transitioning

 to the plane didn't take too long, however it's still a very

 forgiving plane that is not as hard to stay behind as the RV-10.

 Not only that, but it was a good plane for me to self-learn how

 to be comfortable in the right seat.  So I've been putting some

 time in lately with that plane.  There are things that are easier

 in my RV-10...like you don't have to set a DG, you have electric

 flaps and trim, the spring gear makes for quiet touchdowns,

 and things like that.  But from a perspective on how rapid-fire

 things go in the pattern, it is much much faster.  Yesterday I

 got back in my own left seat and did a couple landings just to

 see the comparison, and it was really something to be able to

 take off, climb out, and be at pattern altitude before I even

 hit the downwind leg.  When my wife tried doing a few patterns

 in the RV-10, by the time her brain caught up to the climb

 and turn, we'd be 600-700' high on downwind....things just

 happened way too fast.  Anyway, it's been quite the experience

 watching 2 new pilots develop.  I think that once a person has

 obtained a certificate, if they extended their training a bit

 into the RV-10, it wouldn't be such a bad experience.   The one

 with 40-45 hours is much closer to being able to stay in front

 of the airplane.



 If someone were to insist on learning in their RV-10, I'd kind

 of think that perhaps a way to go about it would be to just

 expect that you're going to do more like 30-40 hours of dual

 up front, followed by some solo work.  If you have a good

 instructor in there with you, it wouldn't be un-do-able, but it

 will definitely hinder your rate of learning to have that much

 going on in the beginning, so planning accordingly would

 be good.  My best guess is that whereas 40 hours would be a

 minimum for private pilot, to learn to fly in an RV-10 might

 take that same person more like 60 hours.  If you would have

 taken 60 hours, maybe it will take you 80 now.  So I would

 say it might be better for your airplane and it's engine to

 just rent/lease/buy something cheap to get the training done in,

 and then move on from there...still spending a little more

 dual with the instructor.  If you noticed, I paid less than

 $1000 for the insurance for those 2 new pilots, in a ~$30,000

 airplane.  That would be cheaper than spending the additional

 THOUSANDS if I could even find a place to insure a student in

 mine.  Also, since I have that lease deal worked out, my wife

 can now put in a bunch of time of her own if she wants, and

 keep flying and logging time after she gets a certificate, until

 she builds the minimum of maybe 100 hours before any company

 would even touch her for the RV-10. (there was a slight chance

 that with 100 hours I could get insurance for $1000 or more

 add-on...but most companies won't touch you without 250)



 Sorry for the long story, but I'm sitting in a terminal building

 hanging out while one of them is out with the instructor, so

 it's just on my mind.



 The other thing on my mind is....this Cherokee only has a

 2 place intercom.  We sometimes stuff 3 (or maybe will even

 try 2 kids) into the back.  So I need to pick up a cheap

 portable intercom. I used to own a Flightcom, and I'm hoping

 to find something like a used Flightcom IIsi.  Anyone have one

 that they aren't using that they'd want to sell for a decent

 price?



 -- 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

I would agree that it seems easier to land the RV-10 in the right

seat than a yoke-equipped plane. I think it is the stick....it's

a little more ambidextrous capable I think...just more natural

than a yoke.  The throttle is really the only part that messes

me up.  And, I'd agree that in the pattern once you get comfortable

and you are no longer behind the airplane, I think that the -10 in

my case is easier too, due to the trim/flaps/goodies and all, and

the added size and weight for stability.  The key is "once you

are comfortable".  You need to have a good feel for all of the

basic flight maneuvers.  Steep turns and even normal turns are

very simple for us...but for a new student, it doesn't take much

to get out of whack high or low in a turn in a light-feeling plane

like the -10.  The cherokee is much much more mushy and easy that

way during learning.  Now, once you have experience and have a good

handle on everything, the -10 is a VERY easy plane to transition

too, and it will make you look like a far better pilot than

you probably even are.  It lands easier than most any plane I've

ever flown...if you fly it the way it needs to be.  I've NEVER

had plane that was as consistently smooth touching down as

the -10.  The Sundowner I had a significant amount of time in,

and was very good at flying, but my "beautiful landing" percentage

wasn't nearly what it is in the -10.  And although I can make

the Cherokee be halfway smooth too already, in the right seat,

it too has just no comparison to the -10.  So once a person has

some experience the -10 isn't very hard to deal with.  I'd think

that if a zero hour pilot flies 100 hours and they did it over 2

years or less, they'd probably easily be able to transition.

(currency matters) If you're under 100 hours, I think it'll just

take a little more work.  Under 60 and I think it would be best

just to do some dual for a bit before thinking of any solo work

in the -10.  I know I scared myself a few times in my first 100

hours...I'd have been a disaster in the -10.  What really helped

me gain experience though was going into my instrument training

sometime not long after the 100 hour mark.  Then I was focused

not on how to fly the plane, but to fly the plane according

to some precise path....and the "handling" part just started

to become second nature with the added 40 hours I had to do

for instrument.  To me, an instrument rating is the most valuable

rating you can get...even simply due to a dual-time experience

with an instructor.  By the time you've done both you'd have

over 100 hours guaranteed, and you'd be far along the path to

being a lesser insurance risk...hence the reason they are

requiring it more and more.



I do hope to spend more time in the Right seat on the -10, too.

Ultimately, once I get done helping these 2 through their

private pilot stuff, I want to get in gear to do my commercial

and CFI, just for the heck of it.  I don't want to be paid to

be a CFI, but it would come in handy some times.



Oh, and you're absolutely right about the visibility in the -10.

It's unparalleled for forward viz.  The Sundowner was also excellent.

They both are far better cockpits than the 172/182/cherokees

from an ergonomic and visibility perspective. (I'm talking the

later model Sundowners, like my 1977 I had)



What blows me away lately is how CHEAP that cherokee is to fly.

I fly for hours and hours and go to fill it up and put in a

few drops of gas.  Man, now that is a different feeling compared

to local, rich of peak flying in the RV-10.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I agree almost completely with your conclusions, Tim.  Having spent the 

 last year going from first solo through 95 RV-10 hours (250TT), it is 

 all fairly fresh in my mind.  I definitely would recommend getting 

 something that is easier to stay on top of while getting going.  I don't 

 know how the RV-10 landing gear holds up under initial training, but I 

 know that it is hard to hurt the gear on a 172, and I know I put it 

 through its paces starting out.  Once you get fairly comfortable flying 

 in general, the -10 isn't hard to stick with in the pattern, and is even 

 easier in some respects, especially with the flaps and trim on the 

 stick.  It is certainly hard to get cheaper to operate than a C152 or a 

 Cherokee, especially when counting the insurance costs.

 

 One thing I will add, however, is that I think it is much easier to get 

 comfortable right seat in the -10 than in the other planes mentioned.  

 I'm not sure if it's the stick over the yoke or the better visibility or 

 what, but I have done the same number of landings right seat in the -10 

 and the 172 and the Cherokee 180, and I can land the -10 much much 

 better than the other two.  Tim, have you flown any right seat in the -10?

 

 do not archive

 

 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 On May 25, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

 

> 

>

> For those of you who followed the past discussions we had about

> learning to fly in an RV-10, I've gotten to see first-hand some of

> what happens to new pilots again, to refresh my memory.  Recently,

> my wife and another lady have been flight training.  One has about

> 20 hours now, and one has 40+.  They both flew a rental Cessna 152

> for the first 90% of the hours.  I'd been hemming and hawing on what

> to do for a plane, because I hated the idea of paying $76-80/hr wet

> for a stinkin' C-152.  That's a ripoff.  But, they were flying that

> plane and learning.  Then one day after they had about the

> above mentioned hours, we jumped in the RV-10 and I gave them a

> shot at flying that plane.  It was very easy to see how they

> were instantly over their head...although the one with 40 hours

> had a better handle on the airplane, of course.  Things just

> come at you too fast, and in fact, one of the instructors that

> we've now had them spending time with usually insists on full-stop

> landings for a good amount of time too, because there is too

> much in rapid-fire when you try to do touch-n-go's early on.

>

> Recently they've both transitioned into a different airplane.  Get

> this.... I found a place that I can lease a Cherokee 140 Cruiser

> (160hp) for $32/hr dry + insurance.  I only need to hangar the

> airplane and fill it with fuel and insure it.  The insurance for

> myself, the 2 students, and an "open policy" allowing anyone

> with 250 hours to fly it, was $914/yr...and of course we get 90%

> credit back for the unused months when we return the plane.  So,

> it was a no-brainer to take that deal, and I wish I'd have

> started that way when they wanted to learn how to fly.  That plane

> is a little better for them to learn in, too.  Transitioning

> to the plane didn't take too long, however it's still a very

> forgiving plane that is not as hard to stay behind as the RV-10.

> Not only that, but it was a good plane for me to self-learn how

> to be comfortable in the right seat.  So I've been putting some

> time in lately with that plane.  There are things that are easier

> in my RV-10...like you don't have to set a DG, you have electric

> flaps and trim, the spring gear makes for quiet touchdowns,

> and things like that.  But from a perspective on how rapid-fire

> things go in the pattern, it is much much faster.  Yesterday I

> got back in my own left seat and did a couple landings just to

> see the comparison, and it was really something to be able to

> take off, climb out, and be at pattern altitude before I even

> hit the downwind leg.  When my wife tried doing a few patterns

> in the RV-10, by the time her brain caught up to the climb

> and turn, we'd be 600-700' high on downwind....things just

> happened way too fast.  Anyway, it's been quite the experience

> watching 2 new pilots develop.  I think that once a person has

> obtained a certificate, if they extended their training a bit

> into the RV-10, it wouldn't be such a bad experience.   The one

> with 40-45 hours is much closer to being able to stay in front

> of the airplane.

>

> If someone were to insist on learning in their RV-10, I'd kind

> of think that perhaps a way to go about it would be to just

> expect that you're going to do more like 30-40 hours of dual

> up front, followed by some solo work.  If you have a good

> instructor in there with you, it wouldn't be un-do-able, but it

> will definitely hinder your rate of learning to have that much

> going on in the beginning, so planning accordingly would

> be good.  My best guess is that whereas 40 hours would be a

> minimum for private pilot, to learn to fly in an RV-10 might

> take that same person more like 60 hours.  If you would have

> taken 60 hours, maybe it will take you 80 now.  So I would

> say it might be better for your airplane and it's engine to

> just rent/lease/buy something cheap to get the training done in,

> and then move on from there...still spending a little more

> dual with the instructor.  If you noticed, I paid less than

> $1000 for the insurance for those 2 new pilots, in a ~$30,000

> airplane.  That would be cheaper than spending the additional

> THOUSANDS if I could even find a place to insure a student in

> mine.  Also, since I have that lease deal worked out, my wife

> can now put in a bunch of time of her own if she wants, and

> keep flying and logging time after she gets a certificate, until

> she builds the minimum of maybe 100 hours before any company

> would even touch her for the RV-10. (there was a slight chance

> that with 100 hours I could get insurance for $1000 or more

> add-on...but most companies won't touch you without 250)

>

> Sorry for the long story, but I'm sitting in a terminal building

> hanging out while one of them is out with the instructor, so

> it's just on my mind.

>

> The other thing on my mind is....this Cherokee only has a

> 2 place intercom.  We sometimes stuff 3 (or maybe will even

> try 2 kids) into the back.  So I need to pick up a cheap

> portable intercom. I used to own a Flightcom, and I'm hoping

> to find something like a used Flightcom IIsi.  Anyone have one

> that they aren't using that they'd want to sell for a decent

> price?

>

> -- 

> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

> do not archive

>

>

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Key here is named insured on the policy....subro rights are always reserved by the insurer...first thing you'll be presented with in the event of a claim is an" ROR" reservation of rights....which allows the insurer to operate their investigation for coverage as long as they need to determine coverage...bottom line..name and disclose all pilots on the policy...in the insurance biz...disclose disclose....then pony up your premium....if ya feel like flaming me feel free...I can produce  and adjust insurance claims in Nevada....I love to talk insurance....can't speak of other states...



Rick S.

N246RS

---

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Geez Tim - you've just given away all my secrets.



I'm a low time pilot by any standard (<150 hrs).  I had not flown PIC

for the last 4 years of my build.  There is no way that I considered

myself current to fly the -10.  Jon Johanson did a marvellous job of

shaking down the airframe.



I umm'ed and ahhre'd about regaining some currency in a 172 or arrow

before I launched into the -10.  But I was convinced by Jon J and others

to just get some dual with an instructor in -10, and 'get on with it'.

Best decision I ever made.



I found that flying was a bit like riding a bike.  I now have about 6

hours PIC on my -10.  I am obviously still feeling my way and have a lot

to learn. But, ALL of my landings, circuits (patterns) and general

flying have been better than what I recall in the past.  Yes the plane

is quick and you have to be careful to not let her get in front of you.

But man, what a wonderful - WONDERFUL aeroplane.  She is a delight to

fly and makes me look a much better pilot than I know I am.



Cheers,

Ron

VH-XRM in Oz



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

Gotta agree with you Ron....lol...hmmm Tim's wife and her friend...nuther woman....oops...is Tim saying women can't handle the -10....com' on Tim you make the RV-10 sound like some kinda hot fighter plane....over the fence in the -10 at 70 vs over the fence in the 152 at 58/60?? Never flown one..don't make it more than it is...put a 16 year old who is not afraid to yank and bank in the -10 and he/she will fly the crap outta it.....with age comes reservations....and fear of the precise response of the RV....



Rick S.

N246RS

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

That's great that you jumped right back on the bike!  I do think that

if you're a pilot who had done a lot of flying in a short amount of 

time....perhaps even years ago...like say you put in 100 hours in

one year, or better yet, had 200 hours over 2 years, I think that

helps.  I think if someone has flown that much, they're likely to

have evolved their skill level somewhat to a higher level at one

point, and that from there on they're probably going to retain it

much much better after a long lapse.  You didn't say how long it took

you to get near 150 hours, but the shorter the time the better, would

be my guess.



Part of this comes from past experience as a low-time private pilot.

I remember that when I could hardly get air time, I tried to fly

at least once a month.  That was OK....I kept current enough to

land the plane and be reasonable.  But, when I waited more

than 30 days to fly, the cockpit just felt so foreign to me every

time I sat down.  It was much harder to feel comfortable.

Once after a 3 month lapse, I really wasn't very comfortable at

all.   But, after I had put in the year for my instrument rating,

I think I did 100 hours that 12 month period since I owned a 1/2

share finally, and did my inst. training, and flew on some trips,

and after that point there just wasn't the same feeling anymore

after a 1 or 2 or 3 month lapse.  Now days I have skipped a month

a few times over winter, even 2 months, and I don't really notice

a thing anymore.  And I think if I skipped a year I'd still retain

a bunch.   So of course everyone will be different, but yeah, if you

have over 100 hours, I'd probably just agree with Jon and say

go get some dual in the -10 and get on with it.  If your 100

hours were 5 or 10 years ago, maybe it would be different...but

it is all such a personal thing it's hard to say what will work

for everyone.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

McGANN, Ron wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Geez Tim - you've just given away all my secrets.

 

 I'm a low time pilot by any standard (<150 hrs).  I had not flown PIC

 for the last 4 years of my build.  There is no way that I considered

 myself current to fly the -10.  Jon Johanson did a marvellous job of

 shaking down the airframe.

 

 I umm'ed and ahhre'd about regaining some currency in a 172 or arrow

 before I launched into the -10.  But I was convinced by Jon J and others

 to just get some dual with an instructor in -10, and 'get on with it'.

 Best decision I ever made.

 

 I found that flying was a bit like riding a bike.  I now have about 6

 hours PIC on my -10.  I am obviously still feeling my way and have a lot

 to learn. But, ALL of my landings, circuits (patterns) and general

 flying have been better than what I recall in the past.  Yes the plane

 is quick and you have to be careful to not let her get in front of you.

 But man, what a wonderful - WONDERFUL aeroplane.  She is a delight to

 fly and makes me look a much better pilot than I know I am.

 

 Cheers,

 Ron

 VH-XRM in Oz

 

 --

ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

As an aside, I would like to know how many women there are who have  

RV10 type ratings. My wife is about to start flying again after the  

usual 6 month break around childbirth. And again, as usual, she'll get  

her confidence up in a C152, & then progress to the RV10. Just wisdom.  

Her heart would fly the RV10 tomorrow, but it takes time to polish  

rusty skills, and at 200mph, sometimes there's not enough time to  

balance checks, calls & nav. It's not just the speed, but a steam  

driven C152 seems a lot simpler than  some of our Star Trek panels.  

Plus, our grass strip is not quite straightforward at 550m & obstacles  

at either end & an active airforce base a mile away.



Neil

ZK-RVT



On 26/05/2009, at 4:00 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:



[quote] 



 Gotta agree with you Ron....lol...hmmm Tim's wife and her  

 friend...nuther woman....oops...is Tim saying women can't handle the  

 -10....com' on Tim you make the RV-10 sound like some kinda hot  

 fighter plane....over the fence in the -10 at 70 vs over the fence  

 in the 152 at 58/60?? Never flown one..don't make it more than it  

 is...put a 16 year old who is not afraid to yank and bank in the -10  

 and he/she will fly the crap outta it.....with age comes  

 reservations....and fear of the precise response of the RV....



 Rick S.

 N246RS

 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



 --

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

All RV's are "hot fighters" compared to just about any normally available GA

airplane.  I'm sure I'll get a lot of shit for this but personally I error

on the conservative side and I don't thinks it's prudent to fly any RV w/o

at least 200-250 hours of logged total time (and that's pushing it in my

mind).



I started flying at 22 years of age in 1996.  I flew my first RV, which was

an RV4, in Nov 99 after accumulating about 450 hours in all sorts of

cessna's from 152's to 206's to twins and some J3 time.  I felt like a

pretty competent pilot at that point but holy crap did I get my ass handed

to me in the RV.  Fortunately it stayed in one piece and I lived to tell

about it.  Turn a 24-25 year old loose in an RV-4 and look out. 



I don't consider them all that hard to fly but there is sooo much to learn

why rush it?  I do consider it cheating when you don't even have to think

much about density altitude or takeoff/landing distance on a grass runway or

gee I cannot climb above those clouds in my path or Vx takeoff and

climbouts... being a great aviator should not be rushed (I don't claim to be

one but hopefully some day).  



I like to feel like I "wear" an airplane whether it's upside down, right

side up, on a hot day, or a shitty rainy one w/crappy visibility or an

airport you're not familiar with whether it's at sea level or 5000+ft.  That

takes time period.  RV's are easy to fly if you know "how to fly" but don't

forget to really learn how to fly.  



Don't be in a rush to "move up".  Make sure you've eeked every bit of

knowledge from the plane you're learning in.  Find a cheap trainer and fly

it till the wheels fall of, fix it, and do it again.  If you can afford to

build a 10 you can afford to buy a 150/152 or equivalent and learn how to

fly.  Don't rush.  You might be able to get that 10 built pronto but take a

few years during the build and get several hundred hours.  You'll never

regret it and your not ready to fly that shiny new 10 anyway. 



Let's keep it to only having to learn the tough lessons from Dan Lloyd.

Given more time he may have never learned but we'll never know.



-Ben Westfall

#40579 (finishing kit so what's that about half way?)  



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:11 am Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

There was a lot of tongue in cheek to my message...it wasn't meant to imply anything except add a little humor to the frey...I'm sure Tim didn't take any offense since he has known my "witty" responses for the last five and a half years...besides I can't be held responsible....I was spraying paint all day...the fumes got to me...



Rick Sked

N246RSi 

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 881
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Trainin

" I would like to know how many women there are who have 

RV10 type ratings"



Neil,



Not sure what the story is in NZ but here in the US there is no such thing as an RV10 type rating. As far as the FAA is concerned, if you have a private license (or even a student license and an instructor sign off) you can just hop in and fly it. (There is a "high performance" (e.g., over 200 HP) instructor endorsement required, but that can be done in a 182, etc.).



The real regulation is done by the insurance companies. And if you can afford to (or choose the risk of) fly without insurance, then there is almost no regulation. There have been a few cases of very wealthy, and very inexperienced, pilots doing bad things to very expensive airplanes.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Slightly Off Topic: Portable intercom and Flight Training

That sounds better than our system. We even need separate   

endorsements for different types of GPS, i.e. Garmin 430 / Chelton /  

G900 etc!



In that case, can anyone have a guess at how many women regularly fly  

PIC in an RV10?



Neil

On 27/05/2009, at 5:23 AM, Bob Turner wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 " I would like to know how many women there are who have

 RV10 type ratings"



 Neil,



 Not sure what the story is in NZ but here in the US there is no such  

 thing as an RV10 type rating. As far as the FAA is concerned, if you  

 have a private license (or even a student license and an instructor  

 sign off) you can just hop in and fly it. (There is a "high  

 performance" (e.g., over 200 HP) instructor endorsement required,  

 but that can be done in a 182, etc.).



 The real regulation is done by the insurance companies. And if you  

 can afford to (or choose the risk of) fly without insurance, then  

 there is almost no regulation. There have been a few cases of very  

 wealthy, and very inexperienced, pilots doing bad things to very  

 expensive airplanes.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





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