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KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics

 
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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

6/22/2010

Hello Larry, You wrote:

1) "With that information, I am guessing that would be placed them about
four inches in front of the wing and a little above the extended chord line,
right?"

You can see the placement of these vortex generators on Cirrus airplanes by
going to this web site and watching closely as the pictures flow by:

http://cirrusaircraft.com/

They are definitely placed well below a forward extended wing chord line.
Remember that they are supposed to do their job at higher angles of attack.

2) "......... solve the problem ......." and "........ a perfect solution
....... "

There are two separate, but somewhat interrelated problems, as far as I can
tell, that don't lend themselves to just one solution:

A) Inadequate pitch authority from a too small elevator -- to be solved or
improved by making the elevator larger and / or vortex generators on the
lower side of the horizontal stabilizer.

B) An intermittent burble flowing back to the horizontal tail surfaces from
the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture. To be solved by a larger radius
juncture or vortex generators mounted on the fuselage.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

===================================================

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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:13 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

6/30/2010

Hello Larrry, You wrote:

1) "I wonder if there is a formula for computing the location of the vortex
generator like there is for
the wing fairing."

What wing fairing formula are you referring to? I suspect that the location
of the vortex generators on the fuselage sides in front of the wing is based
on the TLAR formula followed by lots of inflight testing -- that is the
formula that I am using.

2) "It looks like a step. I wonder how many times someone will step on it by
mistake."

It does have words like "NO STEP" painted on it. Haven't seen any broken off
stubs yet.

3) "I will be interested in reading the results of your testing."

Please don't hold your breath while waiting. I've made only two or three
flights with them on so far and they have been moved between flights at
least once. Any results will be very subjective since A) I don't have any
means (yarn tufts and video camera) to visually to gather persisting data
and B) I can't consistently land the plane the same way each time I try.

Right now I am involved / distracted by testing some repositioning of my
center stop spring bias pitch trim actuator. There is not enough travel in
the Ray Allen trim motor to handle the entire range of pitch trim needed so
I was using a bent aluminum tab taped to the elevator to give me enough nose
down trim at aft CG location conditions. A fellow aviator took exception to
the lack of elegance to that approach and shamed me into trying again to
solve that lack of pitch trim range with a different approach. (I tried to
convince him that any homebuilt worthy of its name had some (duct) tape on
it some place, but he wasn't buying that.) My initial repositioning attempt
flown yesterday was not successful.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

PS: There is a third solution to the intermittent burble flowing back to the
horizontal tail surfaces
from the pinched in wing to fuselage juncture that I failed to mention in
the email that you quoted from below. That solution is to carry a bit of
engine power above idle. My attempts to use that technique have always
resulted in excess float in ground effect down the runway after the landing
flare.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

Julian Bone, as part of his research and testing, came up with a book by Stinton. Page 171 really told the story about our problem and gave the formula for the correct wing fairing curve ,, 8 inch radius as I recall. The title and ISBN are: The Design of the Airplane (9781563475146) by Stinton, Darrol.


I bought a copy and loaned it to a fellow with a Glassair so he could design his wing fairing. Julian did some really good work on the low speed stability problem. Pictures of his plane with the new wing fairing are on Bob's web site as I recall.
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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

6/30/2010

Hello Larry, Thanks for the book info -- I'll try to check it out through
our local library inter-library lending system.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

Hi OC,

Good to hear you are not crashing that often anymore.

I very much like Stinton's book but it is a bit empirical at times with not a lot of data to back it up. In any case here is page 171. With a quick scan I did not see more on this subject. I would still check out the book if you can find it.

I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by separation in this area with my aircraft. I have never had a problem with elevator authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect. I have not seen the video and am waiting on getting it from Scott. The one picture I have seen did show some turbulence (but it would be guessing to call it separation) at the aft wing root. But the flow over the tail and aft part of the fuselage still looks good. Maybe this turbulence is really just the very start of the stall? If that is the case the small root faring may start the stall. If so maybe this is not all a bad thing since at the root is the best place for the stall to start.

Of course I do want to reduce drag since I NEED to be faster than Scott.

Mark Kettering
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:42 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

Mark/OC
Many years ago I had Dave Morris do some flight test on my plane for possible cert ideas. he did a lot of testing and one included long tuffs at the wing root and outboard about 2 feet. These were video taped and showed that in ground affect the tuffs actually were just rising over the stab. This only happened in ground affet and not in stall at altitude. we felt that part of the problem was the fact that the wing and horiz were at different angles than the production planes so this was causing the problem. Though never tested the same way it seemed that the newer taildrager we built was much better in ground affect. Now that I have a little more experience and about two MM more knowledge I think the best way to adjust this problem is to move the tail up out of the wings flow. looks like three inches would have been perfect. Sounds a little drastic and not really necessary but if I had it to do over kind of thing. The airplane is not in anyway dangerous the way it is so it is something that doesn´t really need to be changed. The added fairings of Julien helped and we will find out about the Vortex generators soon I hope. I got to admit that this is the best parts of this forum. The information provided here is invaluable. Keep it up and I know there are a few others out there with some ideas so lets get involved
Rich
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

[quote]
From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 9:08 PM

Hi OC,

Good to hear you are not crashing that often anymore.

I very much like Stinton's book but it is a bit empirical at times with not a lot of data to back it up. In any case here is page 171. With a quick scan I did not see more on this subject.  I would still check out the book if you can find it.

I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by separation in this area with my aircraft. I have never had a problem with elevator authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect. I have not seen the video and am waiting on getting it from Scott. The one picture I have seen did show some turbulence (but it would be guessing to call it separation) at the aft wing root. But the flow over the tail and aft part of the fuselage still looks good. Maybe this turbulence is really just the very start of the stall? If that is the case the small root faring may start the stall. If so maybe this is not all a bad thing since at the root is the best place for the stall to start.

Of course I do want to reduce drag since I NEED to be faster than Scott.

Mark Kettering
--


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:05 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

I placed the VG's on the underside of the tail and it worked wonders. Now I
can "squeak" it in once in a while. The airplane feels a lot more stable as
I approach, in the flare as well as in slow flight. I highly recommend them
to those that are already flying. Rich saw them just after I installed them
and made the 1st few test flights.

Galin
N819PR

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Richard Trickel
<richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>wrote:

[quote] Mark/OC
Many years ago I had Dave Morris do some flight test on my plane for
possible cert ideas. he did a lot of testing and one included long tuffs at
the wing root and outboard about 2 feet. These were video taped and showed
that in ground affect the tuffs actually were just rising over the stab.
This only happened in ground affet and not in stall at altitude. we felt
that part of the problem was the fact that the wing and horiz were at
different angles than the production planes so this was causing the
problem. Though never tested the same way it seemed that the newer
taildrager we built was much better in ground affect. Now that I have a
little more experience and about two MM more knowledge I think the best way
to adjust this problem is to move the tail up out of the wings flow. looks
like three inches would have been perfect. Sounds a little drastic and not
really necessary but if I had it to do over kind of thing. The airplane is
not in anyway dangerous the way it is so it is something that doesn´t really
need to be changed. The added fairings of Julien helped and we will find
out about the Vortex generators soon I hope. I got to admit that this is
the best parts of this forum. The information provided here is invaluable.
Keep it up and I know there are a few others out there with some ideas so
lets get involved
Rich
--- On *Thu, 7/1/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>* wrote:
From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 9:08 PM
Hi OC,

Good to hear you are not crashing that often anymore.

I very much like Stinton's book but it is a bit empirical at times with not
a lot of data to back it up. In any case here is page 171. With a quick
scan I did not see more on this subject. I would still check out the book
if you can find it.

I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by separation
in this area with my aircraft. I have never had a problem with elevator
authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect. I have not seen the
video and am waiting on getting it from Scott. The one picture I have seen
did show some turbulence (but it would be guessing to call it separation) at
the aft wing root. But the flow over the tail and aft part of the fuselage
still looks good. Maybe this turbulence is really just the very start of
the stall? If that is the case the small root faring may start the stall


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

Galin, do you have any pictures of the plane and the VG's on it?

Rob
Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
I placed the VG's on the underside of the tail and it worked wonders. Now I
can "squeak" it in once in a while. The airplane feels a lot more stable as
I approach, in the flare as well as in slow flight. I highly recommend them
to those that are already flying. Rich saw them just after I installed them
and made the 1st few test flights.

Galin
N819PR

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Richard Trickel
<richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>wrote:

> Mark/OC
> Many years ago I had Dave Morris do some flight test on my plane for
> possible cert ideas. he did a lot of testing and one included long tuffs at
> the wing root and outboard about 2 feet. These were video taped and showed
> that in ground affect the tuffs actually were just rising over the stab.
> This only happened in ground affet and not in stall at altitude. we felt
> that part of the problem was the fact that the wing and horiz were at
> different angles than the production planes so this was causing the
> problem. Though never tested the same way it seemed that the newer
> taildrager we built was much better in ground affect. Now that I have a
> little more experience and about two MM more knowledge I think the best way
> to adjust this problem is to move the tail up out of the wings flow. looks
> like three inches would have been perfect. Sounds a little drastic and not
> really necessary but if I had it to do over kind of thing. The airplane is
> not in anyway dangerous the way it is so it is something that doesn´t really
> need to be changed. The added fairings of Julien helped and we will find
> out about the Vortex generators soon I hope. I got to admit that this is
> the best parts of this forum. The information provided here is invaluable.
> Keep it up and I know there are a few others out there with some ideas so
> lets get involved
> Rich
> --- On *Thu, 7/1/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>* wrote:
> From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>
>
> Subject: Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
> To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 9:08 PM
> Hi OC,
>
> Good to hear you are not crashing that often anymore.
>
> I very much like Stinton's book but it is a bit empirical at times with not
> a lot of data to back it up. In any case here is page 171. With a quick
> scan I did not see more on this subject. I would still check out the book
> if you can find it.
>
> I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by separation
> in this area with my aircraft. I have never had a problem with elevator
> authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect. I have not seen the
> video and am waiting on getting it from Scott. The one picture I have seen
> did show some turbulence (but it would be guessing to call it separation) at
> the aft wing root. But the flow over the tail and aft part of the fuselage
> still looks good. Maybe this turbulence is really just the very start of
> the stall? If that is the case the small root faring may start the stall.
> If so maybe this is not all a bad thing since at the root is the best place
> for the stall to start.
>
> Of course I do want to reduce drag since I NEED to be faster than Scott.
>
> Mark Kettering
> --


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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

7/3/2010

Hello Mark, Thanks for your reply, the good wishes, and the page from
Stinton's book. You wrote:

1) "I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by
separation in this area with my aircraft. I have never had a problem with
elevator authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect."

We may not understand completely what is going on pitch wise in the landing
flare and ground effect with the KIS TR-1, but it would seem that enough
pilots have reported enough surprises / problems in this arena that we:

A) Don't have a firm grasp on the nature of what is happening in this arena;
B) Don't have agreement on the existence or extent of the surprises /
problems in this arena; and C) Don't have agreement on whether a solution is
required or what that solution should be.

I do agree with Rich that the problem is not dangerous, but I am still a bit
annoyed that after flying 50 years plus, 5,000 hours plus over all, and
almost 300 hours in this plane that I can't do a consistent flare and
touchdown on every landing. Further the nose wheel touches down immediately
after the main gear touches down almost every time. On a few rare occasions
I have kept the nose wheel from touching down, but when I make a determined
attempt to keep the nose wheel from touching down I am likely to do a little
re airborne skip.

2) "I have not seen the video and am waiting on getting it from Scott."

If my DVD copy efforts have been successful I am willing to make more copies
and send them to interested KIS TR-1 pilots -- this is what Julian had in
mind in sending me the DVD. You will see video of yarn tufts flowing forward
against the direction of travel in the wing to fuselage fillet area. Don't
know what this is doing to the air flow back at the horizontal tail
surfaces, but it can't be all good.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

=============================================================
---


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

Hello OC,

We should also consider that since these planes are home built no two are exactly alike so they may not have the same exact handling qualities. At times even production aircraft are not the same. My flight test engineering instructor once told a story about flight testing Piper Tomahawks. He said no two had the same spin entry and spin recovery handling. One Tomahawk he flew would recover from a spin. Another would not.

In any case, I think the holding the nose off when landing after the mains contact is not really an elevator issue. I think it is a main gear location issue. I once did a quick calculation and came to the conclusion the main gear is too far aft. When on the ground the force due to the main gear (an up force that is aft of the CG) puts a nose down moment on the aircraft making the nose slam down. Of course the main gear on a trigear plane needs to be aft of the CG but the more aft it is the larger the nose down moment until it overcome the maximum nose up moment the horizontal tail can generate.

This too far aft main gear also makes for a potential to over rotate on takeoff. As the main gear lift off the nose down moment due to the main gear is gone so if the pilot does not reduce the elevator pitch up as this happens the plane will pitch up.

There is no reason to live with this issue. Moving the main gear contact point forward is very simple. I moved my main gear contact point forward by making a flox wedge between the gear and the fuselage so the main gear is now angled slightly forward. Not only does this fully eliminate the landing nose slam but also make the takeoffs much nicer with less pilot effort.

Mark
Quote:

I do agree with Rich that the problem is not dangerous, but I am still a bit
annoyed that after flying 50 years plus, 5,000 hours plus over all, and
almost 300 hours in this plane that I can't do a consistent flare and
touchdown on every landing. Further the nose wheel touches down immediately
after the main gear touches down almost every time. On a few rare occasions
I have kept the nose wheel from touching down, but when I make a determined
attempt to keep the nose wheel from touching down I am likely to do a little
re airborne skip.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics Reply with quote

Rob;

I have two pictures on my web page of the VG's. You can view them at:

http://puertoricoflyer.com/cgi-bin/photoalbum/view_photo/2529251

http://puertoricoflyer.com/cgi-bin/photoalbum/view_photo/2539431

They were not very difficult to install. The instructions were very simple to follow.

Galin
N819PR

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Rob <punchy(at)frontiernet.net (punchy(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> KIS-List message posted by: "Rob" <punchy(at)frontiernet.net (punchy(at)frontiernet.net)>

Galin,  do you have any pictures of the plane and the VG's on it?

Rob









Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
>I placed the VG's on the underside of the tail and it worked wonders. Now I
>can "squeak" it in once in a while. The airplane feels a lot more stable as
>I approach, in the flare as well as in slow flight. I highly recommend them
>to those that are already flying. Rich saw them just after I installed them
>and made the 1st few test flights.
>
>Galin
>N819PR
>
>On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Richard Trickel
><richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com (richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com)>wrote:
>
>> Mark/OC
>> Many years ago I had Dave Morris do some flight test on my plane for
>> possible cert ideas.  he did a lot of testing and one included long tuffs at
>> the wing root and outboard about 2 feet.  These were video taped and showed
>> that in ground affect the tuffs actually were just rising over the stab.
>> This only happened in ground affet and not in stall at altitude. we felt
>> that part of the problem was the fact that the wing and horiz were at
>> different angles than the production planes so this was causing the
>> problem.  Though never tested the same way it seemed that the newer
>> taildrager we built was much better in ground affect.  Now that I have a
>> little more experience and about two MM more knowledge I think the best way
>> to adjust this problem is to move the tail up out of the wings flow. looks
>> like three inches would have been perfect. Sounds a little drastic and not
>> really necessary but if I had it to do over kind of thing. The airplane is
>> not in anyway dangerous the way it is so it is something that doesn´t really
>> need to be changed.  The  added fairings of Julien helped and we will find
>> out about the Vortex generators soon I hope.  I got to admit that this is
>> the best parts of this forum.  The information provided here is invaluable.
>> Keep it up and I know there are a few others out there with some ideas so
>> lets get involved
>> Rich
>> --- On *Thu, 7/1/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
>> To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
>> Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 9:08 PM
>>
>>
>> Hi OC,
>>
>> Good to hear you are not crashing that often anymore.
>>
>> I very much like Stinton's book but it is a bit empirical at times with not
>> a lot of data to back it up.  In any case here is page 171.  With a quick
>> scan I did not see more on this subject.  I would still check out the book
>> if you can find it.
>>
>> I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by separation
>> in this area with my aircraft.  I have never had a problem with elevator
>> authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect.  I have not seen the
>> video and am waiting on getting it from Scott.  The one picture I have seen
>> did show some turbulence (but it would be guessing to call it separation) at
>> the aft wing root.  But the flow over the tail and aft part of the fuselage
>> still looks good.  Maybe this turbulence is really just the very start of
>> the stall?  If that is the case the small root faring may start the stall.
>> If so maybe this is not all a bad thing since at the root is the best place
>> for the stall to start.
>>
>> Of course I do want to reduce drag since I NEED to be faster than Scott.
>>
>> Mark Kettering
>>
>>
>> --


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