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Stall spin characteristics

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bill mcclellan

Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

I understand that the Europa is very prone to abruptly dropping a wing, trying to enter a spin, when stalled with full flaps in the landing configuration.  On the other hand, in the clean, unflapped configuration the stall is very benign.  I wonder if this is true of all Europa's or only some depending on the particulars of that builders end product and possible modifications.  I have nearly 1000 hrs in a Citabria with very much of it flying into short "backcountry" dirt strips requiring significant STOL characteristics.  I don't have flaps so regularly use severe straight and banked slips.  The Citabria is a "dirty" plane compared to the "very clean" Europa so I believe the use of severe slips in the Europa is never warranted.  My experience with very clean planes, I also have 1000 hours in my high performance glider and since the air brakes work so well, severe slipping is not needed...though some less than ultra clean gliders, ie, trainers, can make use of severe slipping.  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration.  I understand that many Europa pilots land with an airspeed up to 65 but this uses a greater landing distance considering the stall speed is in the 40's.  Europa's original touted mission was short field, pasture strips.  For those who often use this short field capability, I would like to know the particulars to make the Europa perform safely in this manner.  Not having piloted a Europa, but am close to finishing my build, I am curious to these questions.

Bill McClellan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Bill

the stall characteristics are dependent on the quality and accuracy of the leading edge. LE is relatively small radius and its all too easy to sand the bump off with the effects you mention. In UK we are told to use stall strips or a stall warner.

Stall strips are recommended and if carefully adjusted will calm the stall. Get hold of the digital print out of the section and make templates every foot or so spanwise. Then spend hours and hours getting the section right. There is a tiny bump under the LE which is important but hard to spot.

Graham



From: William McClellan <wilwood(at)earthlink.net>

To: "Europa-List(at)matronics.com" <Europa-List(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010 16:50:07

Subject: Stall spin characteristics



--> Europa-List message posted by: William McClellan <wilwood(at)earthlink.net (wilwood(at)earthlink.net)>



I understand that the Europa is very prone to abruptly dropping a wing, trying to enter a spin, when stalled with full flaps in the landing configuration.  On the other hand, in the clean, unflapped configuration the stall is very benign.  I wonder if this is true of all Europa's or only some depending on the particulars of that builders end product and possible modifications.  I have  nearly 1000 hrs in a Citabria with very much of it flying into short "backcountry" dirt strips requiring significant STOL characteristics.  I don't have flaps so regularly use severe straight and banked slips.  The Citabria is a "dirty" plane compared to the "very clean" Europa so I believe the use of severe slips in the Europa is never warranted.  My experience with very clean planes, I also have 1000 hours in my high performance glider and since the air brakes work so well, severe slipping is not needed...though some less than ultra clean gliders, ie, trainers, can make use of severe slipping!

 .  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to  severe stall spin in landing configuration.  I understand that many Europa pilots land with an airspeed up to 65 but this uses a greater landing distance considering the stall speed is in the 40's.  Europa's original touted mission was short field, pasture strips.  For those who often use this short field capability, I would like to know the particulars to make the Europa perform safely in this manner.  Not having piloted a Europa, but am close to finishing my build, I am curious to these questions. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">p;                 -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======



 

  [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Bill, I have only stalled my own mono XS Europa, but that I have found is 

very benign in the stall in all configurations. The only time that I have 

got into the start of a spin was when I deliberately stalled it in a steep 

turn - for the experience. It went very quickly into a spin, but that 

corrected itself instantaneously with opposite rudder and easing the stick 

forward. Otherwise a straight & level stall with flaps/gear down and the 

plane balanced is a non event, with little tendency to drop a wing and 

instantly sorted by letting go the stick. I find it entirely well behaved in 

doing a full rudder side slip with flaps down for a PFL.

              I would suspect that the same would apply to any XS as long as 

the wings have gone on at the same rigging angle, and the builder hasn't 

chosen  a Cof G too far aft.  Classics of course have much more wing shape 

variability and it might be that individual ones are less well behaved. 

However my guess is that most stall spin accidents have little to do with 

the stall characteristics of the aircraft, but more to do with the enormous 

work load associated with an engine failure shortly after take off, It is 

all too easy to inadvertently be helping the turn round with excess rudder 

whilst losing sight of the airspeed, because you are stressed big time and 

desperately trying to work out several other things in your mind.

           If you can get a ride in someone else's Europa (or when yours is 

built)and go up to a safe height I think you will be pleasantly surprised at 

how nicely it stalls and sideslips with full flap. You will also probably 

find that the ground run on landing barely exceeds 100metres, and much the 

same on take off if you have 912S or 914, and a VP prop and are not too 

hot/high/heavy!

          Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

Jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Bill,

I have stalled my plane power on, power off, full flaps, and clean. We  

have never felt a wing drop. I use the standard Europa stall warner  

and it works well. I suspect as David points out that in the very slow  

or heavy turn would be the only way to get her into the spin.

BTW: I slip Gold Rush quit frequently and it works well to drop it in.



Just my two cents ;o)



Jeff R.  N128LJ Gold Rush



I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is  

like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the  

handle.

-- Winston Churchill



On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:23 AM, David Joyce wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 Bill, I have only stalled my own mono XS Europa, but that I have  

 found is very benign in the stall in all configurations. The only  

 time that I have got into the start of a spin was when I  

 deliberately stalled it in a steep turn - for the experience. It  

 went very quickly into a spin, but that corrected itself  

 instantaneously with opposite rudder and easing the stick forward.  

 Otherwise a straight & level stall with flaps/gear down and the  

 plane balanced is a non event, with little tendency to drop a wing  

 and instantly sorted by letting go the stick. I find it entirely  

 well behaved in doing a full rudder side slip with flaps down for a  

 PFL.

             I would suspect that the same would apply to any XS as  

 long as the wings have gone on at the same rigging angle, and the  

 builder hasn't chosen  a Cof G too far aft.  Classics of course have  

 much more wing shape variability and it might be that individual  

 ones are less well behaved. However my guess is that most stall spin  

 accidents have little to do with the stall characteristics of the  

 aircraft, but more to do with the enormous work load associated with  

 an engine failure shortly after take off, It is all too easy to  

 inadvertently be helping the turn round with excess rudder whilst  

 losing sight of the airspeed, because you are stressed big time and  

 desperately trying to work out several other things in your mind.

          If you can get a ride in someone else's Europa (or when  

 yours is built)and go up to a safe height I think you will be  

 pleasantly surprised at how nicely it stalls and sideslips with full  

 flap. You will also probably find that the ground run on landing  

 barely exceeds 100metres, and much the same on take off if you have  

 912S or 914, and a VP prop and are not too hot/high/heavy!

         Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

 ---

rlindsa2(at)san.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Bill--On first flights I have done stalls on thirteen different Europas from 

classics, XS, tri & mono gear, plus motor glider.  Most first flight stalls 

were done at idle power at medium weight and CG.  All stalled benignly in a 

clean config, but some had a wing drop after first indication of imminent 

stall in the flaps down config--which was corrected easily with neutralizing 

controls.  Of course, there is some altitude loss.  These wing droppers were 

candidates for stall strips.

In regard to short field landings--know what the stall speed is for your 

config, weight & CG.  (That is part of what you check in your phase 1 test 

period)  Then fly your stabilized approach at 1.2 Vso (assuming no gusting 

wind).  Slips are marginally effective in the XS mono giving you about 1500 

fpm down vice 1200 no slip at 80 KIAS gear down, idle pwr.  Slips in a turn 

are OK with top rudder but of course skidding turns are a no-no.

Bob Lindsay

San Diego CA



---

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Bill,



As others have pointed out, the stall characteristics depend entirely on the quality of the build.  My Europa stalls straight ahead, flaps up or flaps down, with and without power.  I have not yet attempted a "go around" stall with full power and flaps down but I suspect that it would fall off to the left due to torque.



I have slipped my Europa in landing  configuration, full flaps, and it slips quite well with lots of control on speed and descent rate.



No aircraft stalls benignly in the skidding turn (classic overshoot base to final turn and try to hurry the turn with rudder).  I've stalled an Aeronca, a C-150 and the Europa in a skidded turn and it's UGLY.  Like a half snap roll into the down wing followed by a spin entry.  Takes over 1000 feet to recover in any of those three aircraft.  Good idea never to skid a turn.



No severe stall in landing configuration in the Europa.  



The monowheel is perfectly at home on turf strips.  I used 60 on short final, 50  "over the fence" then slow to 45 into a gentle flare and full stall touch down.  You'll roll to a stop in well less than 100 meters.  On hard surface, it's all different, even with the same sorts of speeds you will use more runway, both length and width.



If you are completing a Europa monowheel, get some dual from someone with monowheel experience.  It's a whole 'nother cat.  Not like any other taildragger out there.  It all changes when you are in a taildragger without differential breaking.  If at all possible, work off grass for lots of hours first.  Then more dual from someone experienced with a monowheel when it's time to work on hard surfaces.  Be VERY aware of the winds, especially cross-winds, both on landing and takeoff.



The Europa is a wonderful aircraft, a delight to fly, super economical but the monowheel is quirky on landing and takeoff.



I hope this helps.  



Regards,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232

http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046

Europa Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117



On Aug 3, 2010, at 10:50, William McClellan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I understand that the Europa is very prone to abruptly dropping a wing, trying to enter a spin, when stalled with full flaps in the landing configuration.  On the other hand, in the clean, unflapped configuration the stall is very benign.  I wonder if this is true of all Europa's or only some depending on the particulars of that builders end product and possible modifications.  I have nearly 1000 hrs in a Citabria with very much of it flying into short "backcountry" dirt strips requiring significant STOL characteristics.  I don't have flaps so regularly use severe straight and banked slips.  The Citabria is a "dirty" plane compared to the "very clean" Europa so I believe the use of severe slips in the Europa is never warranted.  My experience with very clean planes, I also have 1000 hours in my high performance glider and since the air brakes work so well, severe slipping is not needed...though some less than ultra clean gliders, ie, trainers, can make use of severe slippin

 g!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   .  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration.  I understand that many Europa pilots land with an airspeed up to 65 but this uses a greater landing distance considering the stall speed is in the 40's.  Europa's original touted mission was short field, pasture strips.  For those who often use this short field capability, I would like to know the particulars to make the Europa perform safely in this manner.  Not having piloted a Europa, but am close to finishing my build, I am curious to these questions.

 Bill McClellan

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Hi Bill,



We have slipped with both the short wings and the long.  It does help increase sink rate, certainly not as effective as in a Citabria, of course.  The air brakes on the MG wings are rather ineffective, compared to spoilers on other MGs.  The get more dynamic range in drag during the landings, we use full airbrake and full rudder slips, at higher speeds (80 kts vs the usual 60 kts on final).  The higher speed may seem counter intuitive to some, but drag goes up with the square of speed, as I recall.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

--

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 805

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Stall spin characteristics

I remember reading of a Classic that had fairly benign stalls when straight ahead, but if pulling some Gs, it became a bit unwieldy.



Ended up after studying wings, when wings would flex when pulling some Gs, the ailerons would droop a bit. This in effect washes in the wing.



His resolution was to reflex both ailerons a bit and all was happy.



Has anyone practiced stalls pulling some Gs (in a coordinated turn)? If unwieldy did you ever try re flexing ailerons a bit? If so how much and did it help?



Thx.

Ron Parigoris

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Stall spin characteristics

For excitement, try departure stalls with flaps and full power.

I get a nice snap followed by entry into a tight spiral. It does not

seem easy to make my aircraft develop a true spin.



Slips for steep approach are very effective and easily controlled in

the trigear.

_________________
Ira N224XS

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:05 pm Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Robert Borger wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you are completing a Europa monowheel, get some dual from someone  

 with monowheel experience.  It's a whole 'nother cat.


	


Bob,



..jus curious...what is your tire pressure?...and, are your outrigger  

rod lengths such that, when your plane sits on level pavement with  

fuel but nobody onboard, your outrigger wheels touch the  

pavement?...or is there some side-to-side rocking?



Fred

Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

William:  

“.  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration.  “  

        I am tempted to agree with much of what you say. It has been my contention that Oshkosh makles demands with which that many junior pilots shouldn’t comply.  One of these is a short final with multi bank when the authority calls for a wing-wag when inside rudder is correcting for runway centreline. There’s the critical inside rudder/inside bank pair which prompts the inner wing stall.  From there on down is mathematical.  

Know your plane,  

Cheers  

 ferg  

Ps: Rudder OFF first before aileron..............     [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:49 pm Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Fred,



I don't remember exactly what I set the tire pressure, but I remember that it was at the low end of the recommended pressure.  It's set soft for hard surfaces.  If set hi on hard surfaces it bounces like a basket ball and is a real pain to land.  If you are landing on turn, it's not too bad that way.  Still, i prefer soft tire on either surface.



The outrigger length is what was provided by the factory.  One outrigger is about an inch off the ground when the other is on the ground.  I have not had it full loaded but is possible that both outriggers could be on the ground when fully loaded.



Yes, it rocks back and forth when taxiing but not very much.  The rocking is affected by turns and by wind.  The only time I find it disconcerting is on takeoff.  That can be fixed by making sure you have aileron into the wind when you start to advance the throttle.  Just help pin the up-wind outrigger to the ground till airborne.



Hope this helps,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232

http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046

Europa Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117



On Aug 3, 2010, at 22:00, Fred Klein wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Robert Borger wrote:

 

> If you are completing a Europa monowheel, get some dual from someone with monowheel experience.  It's a whole 'nother cat.

 

 Bob,

 

 ...jus curious...what is your tire pressure?...and, are your outrigger rod lengths such that, when your plane sits on level pavement with fuel but nobody onboard, your outrigger wheels touch the pavement?...or is there some side-to-side rocking?

 

 Fred

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:53 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

True enough Ferg,

I think probably a rearward C of G may also have been involved.

Cliff had indicated to me that he had 11lbs of weight in the tail.

Add to that a stop at a nearby airport, probably for fuel, luggage for Oshkosh,

and two people who were not very heavy.



Regards,



Dave



do not archive

[quote]



“.  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration.  “

        I am tempted to agree with much of what you say. It has been my contention that Oshkosh makles demands with which that many junior pilots shouldn’t comply.  One of these is a short final with multi bank when the authority calls for a wing-wag when inside rudder is correcting for runway centreline. There’s the critical inside rudder/inside bank pair which prompts the inner wing stall.  From there on down is mathematical.

Know your plane,

Cheers

 ferg

Ps: Rudder OFF first before aileron..............  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Not to but in, but...

 You fliers are doing a great job of what the problems of stall in the  Europa are.  Basically, none.  Many thanks for good comments and  techniques.

  

 I have, like Bob, flown a number of different Europa's and stalled them  all.  Side slips are pleasant using a foot full of rudder.   Keep the speed up at 1.3Vs if slipping is my rule.  Remember, someone cares  if you are dead.

  

 As for stalls:  Climb up about three mistakes high (3000 AGL)

 Trim for pattern speed of about 80.  Put one finger on the front of  the stick and line up with a cloud on the horizon.  Pull the power back and  smoothly pull back attempting to hold altitude, and keep it pointed at the  cloud.  The plane, if in the 60-61 inch CG when empty, properly built  within .1 degree equal incidence and no droopy controls, will rumble  slightly just prior to the stall, the nose will go up just a bit and then  down, and bob up and down.  I don't even need the ball.  But it  is nice to have a whiskey ball rather than one of those electric orange dots on  an EFIS.

  

 The laminar flow wing will bite you if you release the stick just a bit as  the nose rises in the approach to the stall break, and you abruptly pull it  right back.  Most laminar flow wing aircraft will drop a wing  instantly as it is a deep stall of one wing.  This usually occurs when  you have a death grip on the stick and can't feel a thing.  Relaxed, and  paying attention to your duties, you feel the plane get light in the nose, and  directional control starts to wander a tiny bit, and you can release pressure  and maintain control.

  

 Fully configured the rumble is less pronounced due to the flap burble and  it can surprise the unaware pilot who attempts a slow speed abrupt  maneuver.  The wing drop is pretty fast again, and you will achieve 90  degrees in less than a 1/2 second.

  

 Unload for control, and it instantly stops in any configuration.  Then  recover.

  

 The 40 hour fly off, as they fliers commented on, is to fine tune your  aircraft and get its feel.  Stall strips depicted in the operators manual  are excellent stall warnings.  So are electronic devices, but none as  good as a well flown test series of stalls, slips and slow flight done at least  3 mistakes high to feel your aircraft.

  

 I added vortex generators to my Classic which normally stalls at a  Calibrated A/S of 55 at 1370 lbs.  Dead straight ahead stall.  With  the VGs over the ailerons only, the plane wing rocks like a century series  fighter and the burble is a pounding on the tail plane that is quite a wake up  shake.  The wing rock is probably too much for a novice and could lead to  an abrupt wing drop if he attempts to jamb in aileron to keep it level.

 With VGs all along the LE of the wing  from the tip to two feet prior  to the fuselage (so I can get my butt on the wing) the burble is quite  pronounced (due to the clean root) and the stall is 46 Kts CAS clean at 1320  lbs.  One problem with the VGs.  The plane feels so rock solid slow,  that one can get complacent and find himself out of airspeed and ideas (falling  with style). I prefer the stall strips neatly blended into the leading edge at  the root as a nice reminder that I am not paying attention to job one, that is,  flying the plane, as it is supposed to be, by the number in the book.  VGs  work great but look like a bad hair day on the wing.  

  

 New guys, there is no excuse:

 Runway-airspeed are the two calls around the pattern.  Fly by the  numbers.  If you have to be abrupt in moving the plane, go around and do it  again.  If it doesn't look right, it isn't.  And there is no  substitute for airspeed.  Practice in some ones well built Europa to get a  feel.

  

 If you have a short field and must get close to your stall margin, stay  sharp, and be cautious.  If you don't feel like Steve Canyon that day,  land somewhere else.  Don't slow down until you have the runway made.   Don't force the plane on the ground.  Keep you energy up until crossing the  fence, and allow for a slow speed bleed off into a slow flight attitude crossing  the threshold and continue to hold it just an inch or two above the runway until  it settles.   Better to land 300 feet down on speed than 15 hot at the  threshold and bounce. Tail wheel guys just keep the stick back, rudder to stay  straight and fly it to parking.

  

 Most of the time I cruise the Europa with my hand off the stick and fly  with my feet.  This is a great rudder airplane, a stable airplane, and has  superb flight and stall characteristics.  If it is bent or crooked, we can  help you straighten it out.

  

 Like Ferg eluded to, the controller doesn't fly your plane.  Don't let  them put you into a position you are not comfortable with.  If the  controllers get mad, buy them a cup of coffee and and tell them you are alive,  and that was more important than stalling and crashing at the time.  Know  your plane and your limits.

  

 Airspeed is life.

 Bud

  

 [quote]   ---

n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Bud,

 Nicely put! Thank you.

 

 

 Ralph

 

 On 8/5/2010 7:07 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: [quote]   Stall spin characteristics          <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->      Not to but in, but...

   You fliers are doing a great job of what the problems of stall in the Europa are.  Basically, none.  Many thanks for good comments and techniques.

    

   I have, like Bob, flown a number of different Europa's and stalled them all.  Side slips are pleasant using a foot full of rudder.  Keep the speed up at 1.3Vs if slipping is my rule.  Remember, someone cares if you are dead.

    

   As for stalls:  Climb up about three mistakes high (3000 AGL)

   Trim for pattern speed of about 80.  Put one finger on the front of the stick and line up with a cloud on the horizon.  Pull the power back and smoothly pull back attempting to hold altitude, and keep it pointed at the cloud.  The plane, if in the 60-61 inch CG when empty, properly built within .1 degree equal incidence and no droopy controls, will rumble slightly just prior to the stall, the nose will go up just a bit and then down, and bob up and down.  I don't even need the ball.  But it is nice to have a whiskey ball rather than one of those electric orange dots on an EFIS.

    

   The laminar flow wing will bite you if you release the stick just a bit as the nose rises in the approach to the stall break, and you abruptly pull it right back.  Most laminar flow wing aircraft will drop a wing instantly as it is a deep stall of one wing.  This usually occurs when you have a death grip on the stick and can't feel a thing.  Relaxed, and paying attention to your duties, you feel the plane get light in the nose, and directional control starts to wander a tiny bit, and you can release pressure and maintain control.

    

   Fully configured the rumble is less pronounced due to the flap burble and it can surprise the unaware pilot who attempts a slow speed abrupt maneuver.  The wing drop is pretty fast again, and you will achieve 90 degrees in less than a 1/2 second.

    

   Unload for control, and it instantly stops in any configuration.  Then recover.

    

   The 40 hour fly off, as they fliers commented on, is to fine tune your aircraft and get its feel.  Stall strips depicted in the operators manual are excellent stall warnings.  So are electronic devices, but none as good as a well flown test series of stalls, slips and slow flight done at least 3 mistakes high to feel your aircraft.

    

   I added vortex generators to my Classic which normally stalls at a Calibrated A/S of 55 at 1370 lbs.  Dead straight ahead stall.  With the VGs over the ailerons only, the plane wing rocks like a century series fighter and the burble is a pounding on the tail plane that is quite a wake up shake.  The wing rock is probably too much for a novice and could lead to an abrupt wing drop if he attempts to jamb in aileron to keep it level.

   With VGs all along the LE of the wing  from the tip to two feet prior to the fuselage (so I can get my butt on the wing) the burble is quite pronounced (due to the clean root) and the stall is 46 Kts CAS clean at 1320 lbs.  One problem with the VGs.  The plane feels so rock solid slow, that one can get complacent and find himself out of airspeed and ideas (falling with style). I prefer the stall strips neatly blended into the leading edge at the root as a nice reminder that I am not paying attention to job one, that is, flying the plane, as it is supposed to be, by the number in the book.  VGs work great but look like a bad hair day on the wing.  

    

   New guys, there is no excuse:

   Runway-airspeed are the two calls around the pattern.  Fly by the numbers.  If you have to be abrupt in moving the plane, go around and do it again.  If it doesn't look right, it isn't.  And there is no substitute for airspeed.  Practice in some ones well built Europa to get a feel.

    

   If you have a short field and must get close to your stall margin, stay sharp, and be cautious.  If you don't feel like Steve Canyon that day, land somewhere else.  Don't slow down until you have the runway made.  Don't force the plane on the ground.  Keep you energy up until crossing the fence, and allow for a slow speed bleed off into a slow flight attitude crossing the threshold and continue to hold it just an inch or two above the runway until it settles.   Better to land 300 feet down on speed than 15 hot at the threshold and bounce. Tail wheel guys just keep the stick back, rudder to stay straight and fly it to parking.

    

   Most of the time I cruise the Europa with my hand off the stick and fly with my feet.  This is a great rudder airplane, a stable airplane, and has superb flight and stall characteristics.  If it is bent or crooked, we can help you straighten it out.

    

   Like Ferg eluded to, the controller doesn't fly your plane.  Don't let them put you into a position you are not comfortable with.  If the controllers get mad, buy them a cup of coffee and and tell them you are alive, and that was more important than stalling and crashing at the time.  Know your plane and your limits.

    

   Airspeed is life.

   Bud

    

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     Fergus Kyle (VE3LVO(at)rac.ca) 

     To:     5EUROPALIST  (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

     Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:21 PM

     Subject: Stall spin characteristics

     

     

      

William:     

".  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration.  "     

        I am tempted to agree with much of what you say. It has been my contention that Oshkosh makles demands with which that many junior pilots shouldn't comply.  One of these is a short final with multi bank when the authority calls for a wing-wag when inside rudder is correcting for runway centreline. There's the critical inside rudder/inside bank pair which prompts the inner wing stall.  >From there on down is mathematical.     

Know your plane,     

Cheers     

 ferg     

Ps: Rudder OFF first before aileron..............      	  Quote: 	
		  



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 [b]

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: Stall spin characteristics

Hello,  

Where would one find the digital collection of the profile?  

Thanks,  

Christoph Both  

#223 Classic Wolfville Nova Scotia, Canada  

   

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

 Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:08 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stall spin characteristics  

  

  

     

Bill

 the stall characteristics are dependent on the quality and accuracy of the leading edge. LE is relatively small radius and its all too easy to sand the bump off with the effects you mention. In UK we are told to use stall strips or a stall warner.

 Stall strips are recommended and if carefully adjusted will calm the stall. Get hold of the digital print out of the section and make templates every foot or so spanwise. Then spend hours and hours getting the section right. There is a tiny bump under the LE which is important but hard to spot.

 Graham    

   

    

         

  

From: William McClellan <wilwood(at)earthlink.net>

 To: "Europa-List(at)matronics.com" <Europa-List(at)matronics.com>

 Sent: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010 16:50:07

 Subject: Europa-List: Stall spin characteristics

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: William McClellan <wilwood(at)earthlink.net (wilwood(at)earthlink.net)>

 

 I understand that the Europa is very prone to abruptly dropping a wing, trying to enter a spin, when stalled with full flaps in the landing configuration.  On the other hand, in the clean, unflapped configuration the stall is very benign.  I wonder if this is true of all Europa's or only some depending on the particulars of that builders end product and possible modifications.  I have nearly 1000 hrs in a Citabria with very much of it flying into short "backcountry" dirt strips requiring significant STOL characteristics.  I don't have flaps so regularly use severe straight and banked slips.  The Citabria is a "dirty" plane compared to the "very clean" Europa so I believe the use of severe slips in the Europa is never warranted.  My experience with very clean planes, I also have 1000 hours in my high performance glider and since the air brakes work so well, severe slipping is not needed...though some less than ultra clean gliders, ie, trainers, can make use of severe slipping!

 .  It seems likely that Cliff Shaw's accident was a result of this abrupt spin stall characteristic in landing configuration.  I have a rule (though not unique), "never skid a turn", keeping a nice margin above stall.  It seems that the Europa (and probably all super clean planes, for instance the Cirrus), have a propensity to severe stall spin in landing configuration.  I understand that many Europa pilots land with an airspeed up to 65 but this uses a greater landing distance considering the stall speed is in the 40's.  Europa's original touted mission was short field, pasture strips.  For those who often use this short field capability, I would like to know the particulars to make the Europa perform safely in this manner.  Not having piloted a Europa, but am close to finishing my build, I am curious to these questions. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">p;                 -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======

 

 

   

  

  

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 805

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Stall spin characteristics

Hi Christoph



I have  uploaded wing profiles stored in an album in my gallery:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=78738



Ron Parigoris

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