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hans-chr.erstad(at)c2i.ne
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 Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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I have TR-1 #32 with a IO-240A (125 hp (at)2800 RPM) and a Prince P-Tip
(pre-carbon fiber) 62x68 (Diameter 62” Pitch 68”)
Static RPM (full throtle without moving) is 2200 to 2250 RPM, and full
throttle in flight result in 2800 RPM (after a little while)
So, my 62x68 P-Tip is coarse and suitable for long distance flying, and
fields >600m with hard surface.
In my opinion my 62x68 is as coarse as could be recommended. Finer pich cold
recommended for short fields or grass, or short flight with lot of climbing.
A finer pich may also give a less flat approach. The TR-1 i "slippery" and
does not have much flap, so approach is flat unless you slow down close to
stall.
Regards,
Hans Christian Erstad
http://home.c2i.net/h-erstad/
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] På vegne av BlueSkyFlier
Sendt: 1. februar 2011 04:22
Til: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Emne: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?
--> <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>
Greetings KIS TR-1 owners,
I recently bought a TR-1 (kit #30) constructed by Peter Webb here in the UK.
She flies beautifully but can do with a slightly less coarse pitch prop.
I am seriously considering fitting a Prince P-tip (carbon fiber version).
According to Lonnie Prince there are 24 KIS aircraft flying with Prince
P-tip propellers.
Anyone out there who can comment on what pitch works well on the TR-1? ...
engine power would be a factor in that equation I guess  )) My tractor is
an O-240 which supposedly cranks out 130 hp at 2800 RPM peak.
Would appreciate any input regarding your experiences with Prince P-tip
props.
Thanks and regards,
Alfred
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329151#329151
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BlueSkyFlier
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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Thank you for the information about your prop performance Hans Christian.
My current prop is a Chris Lodge 66.5" dia x 68" pitch. Static rpm is 2200 and max rpm in level flight is 2500 at low altitude. However, with that 2500 rpm I see 140 knots IAS - not yet quite sure how accurate that airspeed indicator is.
Let me use this opprtunity to also thank you in person for the excellent POH you compiled for the KIS2. It was an invaluable source of information when I was evaluating the KIS2 type as a potential buyer.
I agree with your comment regarding maintaining a fairly flat/level attitude until touchdown. With the laminar flow wing the KIS2 does not like to have its nose pointed too far skyward and tends to bite back with a forward rotating moment if you do pull it up too steeply, especially with full flaps down.
With one stage flaps she seems quite well behaved and has no trouble keeping the nose up after touch-down. I am quite happy with her handling, but would just like a little extra ooomph when I push in the throttle for the odd bump or go-round )
Seems that my Chris Lodge propeller will do for long range high level cruising. So perhaps I'll keep that for the odd long trip and optimise the Prince P-tip for more performance at the lower end of the range.
Regards,
Alfred
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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:04 am Post subject: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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Alfred
Your KIS with a C172 nose leg is most likely unique, Out of curiosity next
time you are at the airfield, can you measure the vertical distance from the
centre of the spinner to the ground.
Maybe a bit of useless information , but ....
The build manual states "Exact engine shaft position will vary according to
the engine utilized and the factory cowling ordered with the kit. Lycoming
and Continental engines are to be installed with the thrust line level at
WL41 and with 1½ degrees right thrust".
My understanding of this is that the centre of the spinner should be 41"
above the ground, with a 66.5 "prop this would give you 7.5"of prop
clearance (19cm). However each TR1 is different and it depends if it sits
on the ground with the door sills level or not , the engine mount that was
used and how much material was removed from the main gear legs during the
build and the position of the main gear etc
My recommendations that 7.5" is the absolute minimum clearance ,
particularly if you decide to operate on grass. I have on three occasions
managed to suck up a stone and ding the brass leading edge. also I had one
occasion where i was taxing over particularly rough grass and smashed the
prop completeley.
With the same Chris lodge prop and the IO240 B1B , I can get mine
(eventually )to 2750 rpm flat out in the cruise, I am however on my third
Chris lodge prop ( all supposed to be the same) and each one has been
slightly different in performance.
Keith
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|Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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Thank you for the information about your prop performance Hans Christian.
My current prop is a Chris Lodge 66.5" dia x 68" pitch. Static rpm is 2200
and max rpm in level flight is 2500 at low altitude. However, with that 2500
rpm I see 140 knots IAS - not yet quite sure how accurate that airspeed
indicator is.
Let me use this opprtunity to also thank you in person for the excellent POH
you compiled for the KIS2. It was an invaluable source of information when I
was evaluating the KIS2 type as a potential buyer.
I agree with your comment regarding maintaining a fairly flat/level attitude
until touchdown. With the laminar flow wing the KIS2 does not like to have
its nose pointed too far skyward and tends to bite back with a forward
rotating moment if you do pull it up too steeply, especially with full flaps
down.
With one stage flaps she seems quite well behaved and has no trouble keeping
the nose up after touch-down. I am quite happy with her handling, but would
just like a little extra ooomph when I push in the throttle for the odd bump
or go-round )
Seems that my Chris Lodge propeller will do for long range high level
cruising. So perhaps I'll keep that for the odd long trip and optimise the
Prince P-tip for more performance at the lower end of the range.
Regards,
Alfred
--------
_________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329235#329235
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BlueSkyFlier
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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Hi Keith,
Grin ... if you are on the 3rd prop as you say, I think I'll want to make my ground clearance a bit more than 7.5" ).
One would have to set the travel stop ring on the C172 nose gear to ensure minimum clearance level for the worst case nose-dip compression. With the oleo uncompressed the usual clearance for taxiing would be quite a bit more than worst case. If memory serves I currently have about 12", but I'll be measuring it all up again anyway to see what the maximum prop length is I can get away with ... would like to try for 72" if possible.
The Chris Lodge prop runs really smoothly and will eventually get to around 2700 rpm max in level cruise - after half an hour of trying that is )) BUT - and it is a big but - the low speed thrust is not good enough and, to my mind adds risk to executing a safe go-round at late stage during landing. That's why it will be replaced.
Cheers,
Alfred
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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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on the nose gear version of KIS its a compromise , between a long prop or
ground clearance , if you have 12" of clearance with a 66.5"prop , then
logically with a 72" you will have just less than 9"and this should still be
enough , I am very curious now on what height above the ground is the
centre of your spinner and if the door sills are level.
Keith
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|03/02/2011 19:50 |
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|Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com |
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Hi Keith,
Grin ... if you are on the 3rd prop as you say, I think I'll want to make my
ground clearance a bit more than 7.5" ).
One would have to set the travel stop ring on the C172 nose gear to ensure
minimum clearance level for the worst case nose-dip compression. With the
oleo uncompressed the usual clearance for taxiing would be quite a bit more
than worst case. If memory serves I currently have about 12", but I'll be
measuring it all up again anyway to see what the maximum prop length is I can
get away with ... would like to try for 72" if possible.
The Chris Lodge prop runs really smoothly and will eventually get to around
2700 rpm max in level cruise - after half an hour of trying that is )) BUT
- and it is a big but - the low speed thrust is not good enough and, to my
mind adds risk to executing a safe go-round at late stage during landing.
That's why it will be replaced.
Cheers,
Alfred
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329474#329474
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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BlueSkyFlier
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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Hi Keith
Weather is still beastly hear, so haven't been down to the hangar again as yet. I'll measure up when I do and let you know. In the meantime have spent a weeks holidays building a complete flight performance model for the KIS from first principle aerodynamics equations, design data points and 63(2)-215 wing performance data.
Will be sharing that with the group soon. The model shows that a 69 or 70" pitch will suit my need. But I need to be sure about the static RPM. So I'll be asking Lonnie Prince for torque curves for 70"x 68/69/70" to ensure that my engine can swing it fast enough upward from 30 knots IAS.
Regards,
Alfred.
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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Alfred ,
I ( and sure many others) look forward to seeing the performance model.
| Quote: | From memory I recall some time ago Rich or Mark or Vance stating that it was
a "modified" 63(2)-215, not sure what it means but it may need to be
|
considered.
I also hope you find a suitable Prince Prop and get it approved by the PFA
, and if you decide to sell the Chris Lodge Prop let me know , i am
interested.
Keith
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|"BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> |
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|11/02/2011 08:44 |
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| Subject: |
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|Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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| Sent by: |
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com |
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Hi Keith
Weather is still beastly hear, so haven't been down to the hangar again as
yet. I'll measure up when I do and let you know. In the meantime have spent a
weeks holidays building a complete flight performance model for the KIS from
first principle aerodynamics equations, design data points and 63(2)-215 wing
performance data.
Will be sharing that with the group soon. The model shows that a 69 or 70"
pitch will suit my need. But I need to be sure about the static RPM. So I'll
be asking Lonnie Prince for torque curves for 70"x 68/69/70" to ensure that
my engine can swing it fast enough upward from 30 knots IAS.
Regards,
Alfred.
--------
_________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330560#330560
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
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One way the airfoil is 'modified' is that the control surfaces are triangular when the airfoil is very curved. I think the problem is that the airfoil was not modified to match the triangular cross section of the flaps/ailerons. Rich hotwire cut foam control surfaces to match the airfoil on the prototype. I kind of wish I would have done the same thing.
Scott
--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Keith.Miller(at)esa.int <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int>
Subject: Re: Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users?
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 12:14 AM
--> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)
Alfred ,
I ( and sure many others) look forward to seeing the performance model.
| Quote: | From memory I recall some time ago Rich or Mark or Vance stating that it was
a "modified" 63(2)-215, not sure what it means but it may need to be
|
considered.
I also hope you find a suitable Prince Prop and get it approved by the PFA
, and if you decide to sell the Chris Lodge Prop let me know , i am
interested.
Keith
|------------>
| From: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com (bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com)> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| To: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Date: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|11/02/2011 08:44 |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Subject: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Re: SV: Prince P-tip Propeller Users? |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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| Sent by: |
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com) |
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--> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com (bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com)>
Hi Keith
Weather is still beastly hear, so haven't been down to the hangar again as
yet. I'll measure up when I do and let you know. In the meantime have spent a
weeks holidays building a complete flight performance model for the KIS from
first principle aerodynamics equations, design data points and 63(2)-215 wing
performance data.
Will be sharing that with the group soon. The model shows that a 69 or 70"
pitch will suit my need. But I need to be sure about the static RPM. So I'll
be asking Lonnie Prince for torque curves for 70"x 68/69/70" to ensure that
my engine can swing it fast enough upward from 30 knots IAS.
Regards,
Alfred.
--------
_________________________________________
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330560#330560
http://www.matronics.========================http://forum - List Contribution We &nbs;--> h=
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Get your own web address.
Have a[quote][b]
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