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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
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 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
===================================================================
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With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
[quote][b]
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pilot623(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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Hi Bob,
I was saddened to hear of the loss of your plane but very glad to hear that you were not seriously injured. You didn't mention Carol so I assume she was not on board. Your post today raised a few questions and thoughts.
Assume you were trying to feed from the right tank. You say it appeared empty. Was there any crash damage to the tank that would have caused it to lose its contents? If not, this sounds like a simple case of fuel starvation due to an empty tank. I must be missing something here.
Regarding inability to blow air from the the mechanical pump's input hose towards the tanks, I have never tried this experiment but I suspect the Facet pump is designed to operate with flow in one direction only and by design, it may have been stopping air flow in the reverse direction.
I don't have much experience running my engine at any speed with fuel valves turned off but seem to remember at low idle, the carb supply of fuel is exhausted in around 1 minute and at 4000-5000 rpm, 20-30 seconds.
I'm very interested in hearing how this all turns out.
Jim
Like saving money? Who doesn't! Go to http://www.ultimatesavingsonline.com and register to get some great deals! It's free so you have nothing to lose.
[quote] From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:44 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com; rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==========================================
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With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
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--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
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rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:25 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don’t remember by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in the field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my plane we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the check valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works every year at my conditional inspection.
Ray Pulsar III/3300
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com; rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==========================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
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bernard.wilder2(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us> wrote:
[quote] Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff
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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote: [quote] Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
| Quote: | Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
=================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
|
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esalehto(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:51 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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|
Hi Bernie,
Why you are asking that "was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? " Are there instructions to do so or not?
BR,
Esa
From: Bernard Wilder <bernard.wilder2(at)gmail.com>
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
| Quote: | Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
=================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
| Quote: |
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote]http========================
========
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barryjedwards(at)lineone.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:52 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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|
As I recall, the Facet pump should be mounted at 45 degrees for correct operation. That is certainly how mine is mounted and I would have followed the instructions with the kit.
Barry
G-XPXP 912 Taildragger, 1000hrs, UK
From: Esa Lehto (esalehto(at)yahoo.com)
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 10:51 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Hi Bernie,
Why you are asking that "was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? " Are there instructions to do so or not?
BR,
Esa
[quote][b]
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bernard.wilder2(at)gmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:40 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
|
|
Bob,
I asked because my auto fuel pump has a check valve and the instructions told me to mount it at a 45 degree angle.
Not sure (( After 15 years. )) whether it came with the kit or whether I bought it. I do remember that it was the pump Ford put in its pickup trucks to pump fuel from one tank to another.
Bernie Wilder
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
| Quote: | No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote: | Quote: | Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
| Quote: | Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
=================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
|
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[quote][b]
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sonja.englert(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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|
The engine driven pump can overcome quite a substantial amount of vacuum, as I have found out by accident. When I bought my Pulsar, one of the vents was permanently clogged by fuel tank sealant. I did not know that and flew it home like that. Fortunately the fuel cap leaked a bit, but every time I opened it after a flight, there was low pressure in the tank, the cap stuck to it and air was audibly rushing into the tank. The engine operated normally in that condition, even with the electric pump off.
Sonja
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f95610fba2f89c29f6st04duc
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olk(at)plateautel.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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|
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:44 PM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff
No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
================= <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
0123456789 | Quote: | | arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List |
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olk(at)plateautel.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:04 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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|
Bob – Thank God for your guardian angel [Ps. 91:11-12]! Now the question: rebuild, repair, or replace???
- If the latter, give me a call [575/622-1055]. After 50 years of flying, I’m putting my “Wings on the Wind” [Ps 18: 10] up for sale [N753ST].
- - Let me know if you’re interested! [Rev.] Orv Krohn
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:44 PM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff
No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
================= <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
0123456789 | Quote: | | arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List |
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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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|
Waiting on the insurance before making decisions.
Other than I feel there is too much damage to N912RV to rebuild and Bob H. has warned of hidden damage to the composite structure.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/23/2012 10:02 AM, Orv/Lorraine Krohn wrote: [quote] <![endif]--> Clean Clean DocumentEmail false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--> <![endif]--> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Bob – Thank God for your guardian angel [Ps. 91:11-12]! Now the question: rebuild, repair, or replace???
- If the latter, give me a call [575/622-1055]. After 50 years of flying, I’m putting my “Wings on the Wind” [Ps 18: 10] up for sale [N753ST].
- - Let me know if you’re interested! [Rev.] Orv Krohn
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:44 PM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff
No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us (w7ikt(at)fly-web.us)> wrote:
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
=================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
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cking(at)lifesize.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
|
|
Bob-
You may have answered this already, but in an earlier post you were concentrating on the right fuel tank so assuming selector was to the right side. On inspection you said tank appeared empty. How did it get empty? Was the fuel tank compromised?
Casey
On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Dennis Adams wrote:
[quote]All,
I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet fuel pump failures. There is a marine site claiming that this failure mode is/was fairly common and that Facet knew about it but did not go through a recall. Instead Facet came out with a new model, the E model that does not have this failure mode and assumed the others would eventually be sold and replaced with the new model. It seems that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E model has the problem solved or not.
This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
Dennis Adams
N375CM
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm <rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com (rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don’t remember by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in the field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my plane we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the check valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works every year at my conditional inspection.
Ray Pulsar III/3300
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com); rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==========================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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The fuel selector was on the right tank.
I filled it to 6 gallons before the flight.
It was empty the next day when the plane had been delivered there.
Crash damage emptied the both tanks. The cockpit floor rug has gas stains.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/23/2012 1:04 PM, Casey King wrote: [quote]Bob-
You may have answered this already, but in an earlier post you were concentrating on the right fuel tank so assuming selector was to the right side. On inspection you said tank appeared empty. How did it get empty? Was the fuel tank compromised?
Casey
On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Dennis Adams wrote:
| Quote: | All,
I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet fuel pump failures. There is a marine site claiming that this failure mode is/was fairly common and that Facet knew about it but did not go through a recall. Instead Facet came out with a new model, the E model that does not have this failure mode and assumed the others would eventually be sold and replaced with the new model. It seems that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E model has the problem solved or not.
This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
Dennis Adams
N375CM
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm <rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com (rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don’t remember by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in the field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my plane we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the check valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works every year at my conditional inspection.
Ray Pulsar III/3300
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com); rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==========================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power.
· Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
· The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
· Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
· The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
· We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
· The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
· We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
· We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
http://www.matron===================http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c=
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
nics.com
.matronics.com/contribution
|
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ccoulter(at)wavecable.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
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On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:16:40 -0500
Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us> wrote:
| Quote: | The fuel selector was on the right tank.
I filled it to 6 gallons before the flight.
It was empty the next day when the plane had been
delivered there.
Crash damage emptied the both tanks. The cockpit floor
rug has gas stains.
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
On 4/23/2012 1:04 PM, Casey King wrote:
> Bob-
>
> You may have answered this already, but in an earlier
>post you were
> concentrating on the right fuel tank so assuming
>selector was to the
> right side. On inspection you said tank appeared empty.
>How did it get
> empty? Was the fuel tank compromised?
>
> Casey
>
> On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Dennis Adams wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet
>>fuel pump
>> failures. There is a marine site claiming that this
>>failure mode
>> is/was fairly common and that Facet knew about it but
>>did not go
>> through a recall. Instead Facet came out with a new
>>model, the E
>> model that does not have this failure mode and assumed
>>the others
>> would eventually be sold and replaced with the new
>>model. It seems
>> that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E
>>model has the
>> problem solved or not.
>>
>> This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
>>
>> Dennis Adams
>> N375CM
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm
>><rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com
>> <mailto:rwilhelm(at)dc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told (
>>don’t remember
>> by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and
>>block the flow
>> of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that
>>failure mode,
>> however there were many in the field. Since it was
>>possible that
>> one of those could wind up in my plane we were told
>>to install a
>> bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could
>>still pull the
>> fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install
>>the check
>> valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water
>>pressure. Never
>> worried about it since. I do verify the check valve
>>works every
>> year at my conditional inspection.
>>
>> Ray Pulsar III/3300
>>
>> *From:*owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com>] *On
>>Behalf Of
>> *Bob Heiser
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
>> *To:* pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
>> <mailto:pulsar-list(at)matronics.com>;
>> rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* N912RV power failure on
>>takeoff
>>
>> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v
>>electric
>> fuel pump?
>> The following is the story of trouble shooting the
>>engine quit on
>> takeoff.
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>>
>> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son
>>I trouble
>> shot the loss of power.
>>
>> ·Checked inside the right tank for debris none
>>found.
>>
>> ·The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick
>>drain. We
>> removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas
>>or debris.
>> We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because
>>the quick drain
>> extends into the wing. No water and just a few
>>specks of dirt
>> were found.
>>
>> ·Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked
>>properly.
>>
>> ·The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to
>>mechanical pump)
>> was empty.
>>
>> ·We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel
>>hose that
>> connects to the input of the mechanical pump.
>> Unable to blow air
>> into either tank.
>>
>> ·The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is:
>> Tank, fuel
>> selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel
>>filter,
>> mechanical pump.
>>
>> ·We removed the hose between the fuel selector and
>>12v electric
>> fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the
>>electric pump.
>> Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v
>>electric pump. All
>> the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling,
>>able to look
>> thru the short hoses.
>>
>> ·We removed the wings because the spars prevented
>>access to the
>> 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump
>>was still
>> difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we
>>removed the
>> electric pump it was no longer restricted. The
>>removal process
>> cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line
>>from the
>> mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for
>>debris, none found.
>>
>> When telling the trouble shooting story on the
>>airport a pilot
>> friend said he had a similar problem with an
>>automotive electric
>> fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
>>
>> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the
>>Aero Designs
>> Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine
>>start.
>> There have been reports of the electric pump and
>>mechanical pump
>> both on flooding the carb’s. I did see higher than
>>recommended
>> pressures during flight testing with the electric
>>pump on.
>>
>> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F
>>before starting
>> takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other
>>half at 4000
>> rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F.
>> Do not know
>> how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if
>>the 4 minutes
>> + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
>>
>> --
>> *God Bless
>> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> http://www.matron
>> <http://www.matron/>===================http://forums.matronics.com
>><http://forums.matronics.com/>
>> - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;
>> -->
>> http://www.matronics.com/c=
>>
>> * *
>>
>> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> nics.com
>> .matronics.com/contribution
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>> *
>
> *
>B0b
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Someone may have already answered but the elec pump was to
be mounted on a 45 degerr angle.l This was and is in the
construction manuel.
Clarke
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