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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
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 Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: weights and balances- battery |
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Jesse
My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally gave up last winter and I
replaced it with an Aerovoltz Lithium Iron phosphate battery weighing just
3Lbs, So far It has spun up the engine without any problems , but only time
can tell if its as reliable as my old lead acid , this solution moved my Cof
G forward without any need to rewire or move hardware.
Keith
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|Flyinisfun(at)aol.com |
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|kis-list(at)matronics.com |
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|16/07/2012 03:58 |
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|weights and balances |
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com |
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I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30
inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the
rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.
1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?
2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use
the actual weight of the occupant?
3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no
luggage?
Jesse Wright
This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender.
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Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:45 am Post subject: weights and balances- battery |
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Thanks for all the input on my C of C issue. Here is my situation. When I built the plane Rich suggested I move the tail rearward to the end of the fuselage shell since I was using the Lyc.150 hp engine. That was about 1 1/2 inches. I am running one impulse starting mag and one electronic system which accounts for using two batteries. I put in a pair of high tech motorcycle batteries weighing about 1.5 lbs each. They were mounted just rear of the baggage bulkhead at about 120" station. I have just finished moving them forward to about station 90" which is just rear of the back of the seat. According to my calculations in Cad that amounted to moving about 1/2" forward in the envelope. I am now ahead of the rear C of C about that 1/2". I have not done the actual weight and balance yet so will find out in the next couple of days if my calculations are correct. I have 40 hrs. on the plane but have not done full stalls as things get too mushy before that. I am crossing the fence at about 110 mph indicated and touching down about 75.
Question: By moving the tail rearward did that move my effective envelope from the stated position? Am I playing in no man's land?
Jesse
In a message dated 7/16/2012 1:59:33 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, Keith.Miller(at)esa.int writes:
| Quote: | --> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Jesse
My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally gave up last winter and I
replaced it with an Aerovoltz Lithium Iron phosphate battery weighing just
3Lbs, So far It has spun up the engine without any problems , but only time
can tell if its as reliable as my old lead acid , this solution moved my Cof
G forward without any need to rewire or move hardware.
Keith
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|Flyinisfun(at)aol.com |
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| To: |
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|kis-list(at)matronics.com |
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| Date: |
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|16/07/2012 03:58 |
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| Subject: |
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|weights and balances |
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| Sent by: |
|------------>
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30
inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the
rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.
1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?
2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use
the actual weight of the occupant?
3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no
luggage?
Jesse Wright
This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender.
Please consider the environment before printing this ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: weights and balances- battery |
|
|
7/16/2012
Hello Keith, You wrote: "My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally
gave up last winter........"
10 years old -- Wow, how did it "give up"? When a car battery finally
"gives up" the scenario is usually that one can not get the starter to crank
the engine. There is the usual inconvenience of getting a jump start, then
driving to a battery supply source, replacing the battery, and proceeding
on one's merry way. No great harm done.
When an airplane battery can no longer crank the engine that battery has
long since previously lost its capacity to supply electrical power to
operate any essential electrical devices in the airplane for any significant
period of time should the alternator fail. If inability to operate any
essential electrical devices for the period of time needed to get the
airplane safely on the ground is unacceptable then the pilot has a much more
serious problem than just getting a jump start.
In that "inability to operate" scenario, flying with a clapped out battery
(which can provide no electrical reserve) is analogous to flying with
essentially no fuel reserve and expecting to always being able to safely
land and taxi to a fuel source before the propeller stops cooling the
pilot -- not good.
So using successful engine cranking as the sole indicator of an airplane's
battery's health (reserve capacity) can be deleterious to the pilot's
health. What can one do to ensure that there is sufficient electrical
capacity remaining in the battery for
essential / endurance needs when just cranking the engine is not a good
indicator of battery actual capacity? There are two methods:
1) Use a battery capacity tester to determine the reserve capacity of the
battery. Here is just one example:
http://www.gillbatteries.com/capacitytesters.aspx
2) Just arbitrarily replace the airplane's battery at some periodic
interval -- say every two years?
Bob Nuckolls, our great electrical guru, has touched on this subject in his
postings on the Matronics aeroelectric-list many times. His thoughts on the
subject can be researched through the list archival search capacity.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?AeroElectric-List
His Jun 09, 2005 posting on battery testing gives his philosophy on
preferring this second course of action.
OC
================================================================================
From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:59 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: weights and balances- battery
Jesse
My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally gave up last winter and I
replaced it with an Aerovoltz Lithium Iron phosphate battery weighing just
3Lbs, So far It has spun up the engine without any problems , but only time
can tell if its as reliable as my old lead acid , this solution moved my
Cof
G forward without any need to rewire or move hardware.
Keith
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:47 am Post subject: weights and balances- battery |
|
|
OC
I hear what you say, and very sound advice ,
In my defence I only fly VFR and have two standard mags to keep the fan up
front going , but I agree I should have replaced my battery sooner,
But......... each time I would go to the hanger even after 3 or 4 weeks it
would crank the engine and start and the charging after 15 minutes would go
down close to zero ( as measured going into the battery). Last winter was
particularly cold ( minus 20) and one day it didnt start ,Í recharged the
battery which was fine and a week later the same happened , So I knew that
the time had finally come to replace the battery .
At work we have a team of battery specialists who have done a lot of
research into Lithium Phosphate Iron , and their recommendation was to
replace with a 16 Cell battery , they claim that with correct conditioning
this should in theory last a long time , ( who knows if that is true, i will
let you know in 2022 )
Keith
|------------>
| From: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| To: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|<kis-list(at)matronics.com>, "MILLER KEITH" <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int>, <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Date: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|16/07/2012 14:01 |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Subject: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Re: weights and balances- battery |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Sent by: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
7/16/2012
Hello Keith, You wrote: "My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally
gave up last winter........"
10 years old -- Wow, how did it "give up"? When a car battery finally
"gives up" the scenario is usually that one can not get the starter to crank
the engine. There is the usual inconvenience of getting a jump start, then
driving to a battery supply source, replacing the battery, and proceeding
on one's merry way. No great harm done.
When an airplane battery can no longer crank the engine that battery has
long since previously lost its capacity to supply electrical power to
operate any essential electrical devices in the airplane for any significant
period of time should the alternator fail. If inability to operate any
essential electrical devices for the period of time needed to get the
airplane safely on the ground is unacceptable then the pilot has a much more
serious problem than just getting a jump start.
In that "inability to operate" scenario, flying with a clapped out battery
(which can provide no electrical reserve) is analogous to flying with
essentially no fuel reserve and expecting to always being able to safely
land and taxi to a fuel source before the propeller stops cooling the
pilot -- not good.
So using successful engine cranking as the sole indicator of an airplane's
battery's health (reserve capacity) can be deleterious to the pilot's
health. What can one do to ensure that there is sufficient electrical
capacity remaining in the battery for
essential / endurance needs when just cranking the engine is not a good
indicator of battery actual capacity? There are two methods:
1) Use a battery capacity tester to determine the reserve capacity of the
battery. Here is just one example:
http://www.gillbatteries.com/capacitytesters.aspx
2) Just arbitrarily replace the airplane's battery at some periodic
interval -- say every two years?
Bob Nuckolls, our great electrical guru, has touched on this subject in his
postings on the Matronics aeroelectric-list many times. His thoughts on the
subject can be researched through the list archival search capacity.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?AeroElectric-List
His Jun 09, 2005 posting on battery testing gives his philosophy on
preferring this second course of action.
OC
================================================================================
From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:59 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: weights and balances- battery
Jesse
My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally gave up last winter and I
replaced it with an Aerovoltz Lithium Iron phosphate battery weighing just
3Lbs, So far It has spun up the engine without any problems , but only time
can tell if its as reliable as my old lead acid , this solution moved my
Cof
G forward without any need to rewire or move hardware.
Keith
This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: weights and balances- battery |
|
|
Much depends on where the battery is located as well. Most of my batteries seem to last for 3 - 4 years at the most since they are located in the engine compartment. Had an Audi for over 10 years though and never had a problem with the battery which was located under the rear seat. I have heard the same stories on aircraft batteries when located on the firewall vs located inside the cabin area.
Bob
From: "Keith.Miller(at)esa.int" <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, July 16, 2012 7:47:28 AM
Subject: Re: weights and balances- battery
--> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)
OC
I hear what you say, and very sound advice ,
In my defence I only fly VFR and have two standard mags to keep the fan up
front going , but I agree I should have replaced my battery sooner,
But......... each time I would go to the hanger even after 3 or 4 weeks it
would crank the engine and start and the charging after 15 minutes would go
down close to zero ( as measured going into the battery). Last winter was
particularly cold ( minus 20) and one day it didnt start ,Í recharged the
battery which was fine and a week later the same happened , So I knew that
the time had finally come to replace the battery .
At work we have a team of battery specialists who have done a lot of
research into Lithium Phosphate Iron , and their recommendation was to
replace with a 16 Cell battery , they claim that with correct conditioning
this should in theory last a long time , ( who knows if that is true, i will
let you know in 2022 )
Keith
|------------>
| From: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| To: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|<kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>, "MILLER KEITH" <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)>, <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Date: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|16/07/2012 14:01 |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Subject: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Re: weights and balances- battery |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Sent by: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com) |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
--> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
7/16/2012
Hello Keith, You wrote: "My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally
gave up last winter........"
10 years old -- Wow, how did it "give up"? When a car battery finally
"gives up" the scenario is usually that one can not get the starter to crank
the engine. There is the usual inconvenience of getting a jump start, then
driving to a battery supply source, replacing the battery, and proceeding
on one's merry way. No great harm done.
When an airplane battery can no longer crank the engine that battery has
long since previously lost its capacity to supply electrical power to
operate any essential electrical devices in the airplane for any significant
period of time should the alternator fail. If inability to operate any
essential electrical devices for the period of time needed to get the
airplane safely on the ground is unacceptable then the pilot has a much more
serious problem than just getting a jump start.
In that "inability to operate" scenario, flying with a clapped out battery
(which can provide no electrical reserve) is analogous to flying with
essentially no fuel reserve and expecting to always being able to safely
land and taxi to a fuel source before the propeller stops cooling the
pilot -- not good.
So using successful engine cranking as the sole indicator of an airplane's
battery's health (reserve capacity) can be deleterious to the pilot's
health. What can one do to ensure that there is sufficient electrical
capacity remaining in the battery for
essential / endurance needs when just cranking the engine is not a good
indicator of battery actual capacity? There are two methods:
1) Use a battery capacity tester to determine the reserve capacity of the
battery. Here is just one example:
http://www.gillbatteries.com/capacitytesters.aspx
2) Just arbitrarily replace the airplane's battery at some periodic
interval -- say every two years?
Bob Nuckolls, our great electrical guru, has touched on this subject in his
postings on the Matronics aeroelectric-list many times. His thoughts on the
subject can be researched through the list archival search capacity.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?AeroElectric-List
His Jun 09, 2005 posting on battery testing gives his philosophy on
preferring this second course of action.
OC
==============================
From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:59 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: weights and balances- battery
--> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)
Jesse
My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally gave up last winter and I
replaced it with an Aerovoltz Lithium Iron phosphate battery weighing just
3Lbs, So far It has spun up the engine without any problems , but only time
can tell if its as reliable as my old lead acid , this solution moved my
Cof
G forward without any need to rewire or move hardware.
Keith
This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender.
Please consider the environment before printing this = --> http://forums.matronics.com[b]
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: weights and balances- battery |
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|
I replaced the Concorde battery in my airplane in Dec 2010 after almost 9yrs of service. It wasn't starting the engine as fast as it had been and after verifying with Dave that it was the original battery I replaced it. The battery is under the co-pilot seat so it isn't exposed to the firewall heat. I replaced it with another Concorde battery.
Galin
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:59 AM, <Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)> wrote:
[quote] --> KIS-List message posted by: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)
Jesse
My 10 year old Concorde battery ( CB35) finally gave up last winter and I
replaced it with an Aerovoltz Lithium Iron phosphate battery weighing just
3Lbs, So far It has spun up the engine without any problems , but only time
can tell if its as reliable as my old lead acid , this solution moved my Cof
G forward without any need to rewire or move hardware.
Keith
|------------>
| From: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com) |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| To: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Date: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|16/07/2012 03:58 |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Subject: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|weights and balances |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Sent by: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com) |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30
inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the
rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.
1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?
2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use
the actual weight of the occupant?
3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no
luggage?
Jesse Wright
This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
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rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
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le, List Admin.
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