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Open source wig-wag project

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

Master byte thrasher Paul is putting some

final touches on the software for the AEC9012

Programmable Wig-Wag controller. I ran some tests

on the bench with 55w halogen lamps and was gratified

at the response rate of these bulbs in a triple-

flash mode.



First passes at the software offered a single-flash

mode (ostensibly for tungsten lamps) and a triple-flash

mode for LED lamps due to their faster switching speeds.

As you can see in this video . . .



http://tinyurl.com/c5uzsjd



. . . the halogen lamps intensity modulate quite nicely in the

triple-flash mode so we're eliminating the single flash

mode. Further, we've added a software option that installer

can select that makes the AEC9012 compatible with either single

or two-switch panel controls.



A production quantity of boards arrived today. Some

additional parts are expected Saturday. The data

package for project will be posted at



http://tinyurl.com/bpoqdj7



Paul is having so much fun at the computer he's already

bugging me for the next project.



Many thanks to Greg and Paul who have so successfully

wrangled the bytes into doing a good thing.

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

I had a query about source and object code for the wig-wag

controller. As soon as Paul puts the final polish on it,

both the hex and c-source codes will be published as well.





   Bob . . .

millner(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

On 12/7/2012 11:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   First passes at the software offered a single-flash

 mode (ostensibly for tungsten lamps) and a triple-flash

 mode for LED lamps due to their faster switching speeds. 


	


Bob,



How well would these work with HID lamps?



Paul

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

At 07:11 PM 12/9/2012, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

On 12/7/2012 11:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>First passes at the software offered a single-flash

>mode (ostensibly for tungsten lamps) and a triple-flash

>mode for LED lamps due to their faster switching speeds.

Bob,

How well would these work with HID lamps?

   Unknown. I think there has been conversation here on

   the List indicating that some HID lamps can be flashed

   but not all. I've got some I can hook up here on the

   bench. When I ran them in my car, I think it took about

   20-30 seconds for them to 'warm up' to full light output

   after a cold start.

   It MIGHT be that they would flash well if they were

   operated on-steady for a minute before going to the

   wig-wag mode . . .

   Have you operated your proposed HID lamps with any

   sort of flasher in the past? You could test the

   suitability by simply turning one of them on/off

   at about 1/2 second per flash. Right now the 9012

   is set up for triple flash but COULD be offered in

   single flash mode.

   Bob . . .

millner(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

On 12/9/2012 5:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Have you operated your proposed HID lamps with any

   sort of flasher in the past? 


	


I have not, but they are the ones Precise Flight and Knots 2 U sell 

(joint development project).  And Precise Flight sells a modified 

flasher for them (made of deep unobtanium)... so some kind of flashing 

stratagem supposedly works, though not the conventional PulseLight, 

supposedly.



Paul

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have not, but they are the ones Precise Flight and Knots 2 U sell 

(joint development project).  And Precise Flight sells a modified 

flasher for them (made of deep unobtanium)... so some kind of 

flashing stratagem supposedly works, though not the conventional 

PulseLight, supposedly.


	


    I've pondered the operating temperature thing. When

    you simply wig-wag two lamps, energy feed to each

    lamp drops by 50%. I you 'triple-flash' the lamps

    as demonstrated in my video, the duty cycle becomes

    33% of 50% or 17%.



    These lamps MIGHT stay warm enough to accommodate

    legacy 50-50 wig wag but probably not at 17-17.



    I'll do some fiddling with the lamps I have on hand

    at the next opportunity.



    Has anyone on the List successfully flashed HID lamps

    with even a 50-50 wig-wag control philosophy?



    Someone sent me a couple of lamp assemblies to

    have on hand for the next opportunity I had to get

    into the RF Lab. I also have a pair of aftermarket

    conversion lamps that I tried for a time in my Kia

    minivan. Took them out after a couple of months.



    So I've got three different lamps/ballast combinations

   to try.

   Bob . . .

Mark(at)wessonair.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

We have to ask. Why did you pull them out of the KIA? 

Mark Wesson

President / Owner



mark(at)wessonair.com

Ph   # 407-831-5061

Fax # 407-831-2570

http://www.wessonair.com

 



--

difisher43(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:56 am Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

Bob,

  

 My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion

 click on this link:  http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from

 him which I can't recall the name of right now. The wig-wag and lights worked great.

  

 Dick Fisher

  

  

  

 On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:



  [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

 



  	  Quote: 	
		  I have not, but they are the ones Precise Flight and Knots 2 U sell (joint development project).  And Precise Flight sells a modified flasher for them (made of deep unobtanium)... so some kind of flashing stratagem supposedly works, though not the conventional PulseLight, supposedly.

 	


   I've pondered the operating temperature thing. When

   you simply wig-wag two lamps, energy feed to each

   lamp drops by 50%. I you 'triple-flash' the lamps

   as demonstrated in my video, the duty cycle becomes

    33% of 50% or 17%.



   These lamps MIGHT stay warm enough to accommodate

   legacy 50-50 wig wag but probably not at 17-17.



   I'll do some fiddling with the lamps I have on hand

   at the next opportunity.

 

   Has anyone on the List successfully flashed HID lamps

   with even a 50-50 wig-wag control philosophy?



   Someone sent me a couple of lamp assemblies to

   have on hand for the next opportunity I had to get

    into the RF Lab. I also have a pair of aftermarket

   conversion lamps that I tried for a time in my Kia

   minivan. Took them out after a couple of months.



   So I've got three different lamps/ballast combinations

 ======================ifts!)

 m/" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/for your generous support!

 ==============================================s.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/[u]Navigator?AeroElectric-List

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[b]

corey.crawford(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

One of the vendors on VAF got a patent for some device that warms up HIDs before flashing them:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=55463

 --

Corey Crawford

corey.crawford(at)gmail.com (corey.crawford(at)gmail.com)



  [quote][b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Open source wig-wag project

 	  Quote: 	
		  My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from him.... The wig-wag and lights worked great. Dick Fisher 	




Thanks, Dick. I still sell the wigwags which work on nearly anything, but the HIDs tripped me up when they first appeared. There are three things to keep in mind:



1) They must be warmed up 20-30 seconds or so first.

2) They need a surge suppressor since the initial lamp turn-on neatly exceeds the mosfet current capability.

3) They need a voltage clipper to prevent the starting voltage from getting back to the mosfet.The zener clippers should be near the ballast but not between the ballast and the lamp.



BTW: here is my tirade against wig-wagging HIDs: In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HID, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in excruciating detail what is needed to wig-wag them.



So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (Oh, let's sayâ€¦) 2500 restarts per hour! Many problems with HIDs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched-mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion. 



So even though HIDs are the cat's meow, I'd use halogens or LEDs. It's true, you can do deer-jacking at the other end of the runway with HIDs...but do you really need to do that? I still advise people to use LEDs, or hold out for a little while to get the LEDs you want. A couple CREE Ultrafires will land my airplane now.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

At 01:25 PM 12/10/2012, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com>



 We have to ask. Why did you pull them out of the KIA? 	


   Wrong color. The biggest night-time hazard

   in this part of the world are the road rats



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20121210201021.0037cc10(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



   The color temperature of the HID lamps

   doesn't reflect as well from the fur

   of these critters as the more yellow-red

   incandescent lamps.



   I could visibly illuminate a stop sign

   from 1+ miles away but didn't help pick

   one of these guys up in the ditch at

   200 yards.



 

   Bob . . .

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dee.whittington(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

So Eric, although we were told by Vertical Power that our VP-200 will wig/wag our Duckworks HIDs in each wing leading edge, it's a bad idea to do that?



Dee

 On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)>

 

 

 > My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from him.... The wig-wag and lights worked great. Dick Fisher

  

 

 Thanks, Dick. I still sell the wigwags which work on nearly anything, but the HIDs tripped me up when they first appeared. There are three things to keep in mind:

 

 1) They must be warmed up 20-30 seconds or so first.

 2) They need a surge suppressor since the initial lamp turn-on neatly exceeds the mosfet current capability.

 3) They need a voltage clipper to prevent the starting voltage from getting back to the mosfet.The zener clippers should be near the ballast but not between the ballast and the lamp.

 

 BTW: here is my tirade against wig-wagging HIDs: In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HID, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in excruciating detail what is needed to wig-wag them.

  

 So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (Oh, let's say…) 2500 restarts per hour! Many problems with HIDs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched-mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion.

  

 So even though HIDs are the cat's meow, I'd use halogens or LEDs. It's true, you can do deer-jacking at the other end of the runway with HIDs...but do you really need to do that? I still advise people to use LEDs, or hold out for a little while to get the LEDs you want. A couple CREE Ultrafires will land my airplane now.

  

 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 [url=tel:%28508%29%20764-2072](508) 764-2072[/url]

 emjones(at)charter.net

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390270#390270

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 	




-- 

DeWitt Whittington

www.VirginiaFlyIn.org

Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners

  

  [quote][b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Open source wig-wag project

 	  Quote: 	
		  So Eric, although we were told by Vertical Power that our VP-200 will wig/wag our Duckworks HIDs in each wing leading edge, it's a bad idea to do that? 	




To make this abundantly and perfectly clear:...YES and NO.



Personally I love LEDs more. But HIDs are amazing technology, and I can show you why they are the best source available for putting into a reflector.



But when we tested HID power supplies, we cycled them  on/off 10,000 times in heat-stressed environments, NOT 2,500 times an hour.



Is is possible that the OEM of the lamps and/or HID power supplies would provide a written guarantee of the lamps and/or power supplies for the intended use in aircraft Wig-wagging? HELL NO.



Would it be better (only in term of lifetime) to wig-wag HIDs or LEDs? No doubt about it, LEDs.



Is it be vaguely possible that the HIDs will do fine? YES. Could it be that they are worth their weight in gold if it prevents a collision with another aircraft or a fat Canadian goose and to hell with any questions about possible short lifetimes of the HID and/ power supply? YES!



Is it a really bad idea to fly way up off the ground with an airplane you built yourself? Errrrr......



You decide.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

I would like to install a landing light or two and for various reasons I am leaning towards LEDs. 



Can anyone recommend some products they are happy with? I mean both the bulbs and the lenses/mounting.  If the products are automotive/easy/cheap to source all the better.  I have two circular cutouts about 10cm (4.5in) in diameter which would be natural places to mount landing lights. Most of my flying is daytime VFR. 



Sacha

On 11/dic/2012, at 15:10, "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

> So Eric, although we were told by Vertical Power that our VP-200 will wig/wag our Duckworks HIDs in each wing leading edge, it's a bad idea to do that? 

 

 

 To make this abundantly and perfectly clear:...YES and NO.

 

 Personally I love LEDs more. But HIDs are amazing technology, and I can show you why they are the best source available for putting into a reflector.

 

 But when we tested HID power supplies, we cycled them  on/off 10,000 times in heat-stressed environments, NOT 2,500 times an hour.

 

 Is is possible that the OEM of the lamps and/or HID power supplies would provide a written guarantee of the lamps and/or power supplies for the intended use in aircraft Wig-wagging? HELL NO.

 

 Would it be better (only in term of lifetime) to wig-wag HIDs or LEDs? No doubt about it, LEDs.

 

 Is it be vaguely possible that the HIDs will do fine? YES. Could it be that they are worth their weight in gold if it prevents a collision with another aircraft or a fat Canadian goose and to hell with any questions about possible short lifetimes of the HID and/ power supply? YES!

 

 Is it a really bad idea to fly way up off the ground with an airplane you built yourself? Errrrr......

 

 You decide.

 

 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390285#390285

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: Open source wig-wag project

On 12/10/2012 06:17 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

> My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from him.... The wig-wag and lights worked great. Dick Fisher



 Thanks, Dick. I still sell the wigwags which work on nearly anything, but the HIDs tripped me up when they first appeared. There are three things to keep in mind:



 1) They must be warmed up 20-30 seconds or so first.

 2) They need a surge suppressor since the initial lamp turn-on neatly exceeds the mosfet current capability.

 3) They need a voltage clipper to prevent the starting voltage from getting back to the mosfet.The zener clippers should be near the ballast but not between the ballast and the lamp.



 BTW: here is my tirade against wig-wagging HIDs: In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HID, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in excruciating detail what is needed to wig-wag them.



 So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (Oh, let's sayâ€¦) 2500 restarts per hour! Many problems with HIDs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched-mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion.



 So even though HIDs are the cat's meow, I'd use halogens or LEDs. It's true, you can do deer-jacking at the other end of the runway with HIDs...but do you really need to do that? I still advise people to use LEDs, or hold out for a little while to get the LEDs you want. A couple CREE Ultrafires will land my airplane now.



 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net



Hi Eric,
	




I'm intrigued by your last comment. Assuming you weren't kidding, can 

you compare the 'real world' performance of the CREEs to something we're 

all familiar with, like the traditional 100W incandescent landing 

(tractor) lights or the commonly used 50 & 75 watt MR16 10 degree halogens?



Thanks,



Charlie

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