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Combustible lines

 
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giacummo



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 179
Location: El Pinar, Uruguay

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:02 am    Post subject: Combustible lines Reply with quote

Hello,

Like allways asking for something... I build a wing tank, and I want to know if the lines (from the tank to de gascolator) could be of rubber. I ask because i never saw any one of this kind, all looks like aluminium. If there is a reason why not to do it with rubber I will be very gratefull if someone can explain me .

By the way.. this weekend I install the firewall with a ceramic fiber insulation of 10mm.. It was a little bit gross in width, but it was the thinner I could find. The firewall is a galvanizad sheet of 0.48 mm. It gave me a lot of work because I put it with the engine in place, but after an hour of folding and unfolding it stay in place ;o)


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Mario Giacummo
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Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.com
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gboothe



Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 675

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Combustible lines Reply with quote

Mario,

Reject rubber lines! Ultra-lite guys seem to use them a lot, but they are
often far close to the ground than most. You should only use hard aluminum,
or steel shrouded flexible lines (from wing to fuselage). Don't be
intimidated by manufacturing either of them, as they are easy...plus you
always have your friends on this list to coach you!

Gary Boothe
NX308MB
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Brian C-FAUK



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 37
Location: Millgrove Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:46 am    Post subject: Combustible lines Reply with quote

There is another discussion starting suggesting that the fuselage is the right place for the tank. Please read that.
 
Rubber hoses are still in the mainstream of certified aircraft. They are reliable and easy to purchase but be sure you  get the right type.
 
Adding the term combustible to your question opens a huge can of worms. It is a question with no correct answer and many, many, opinions as no one wants to be killed by a post crash inferno .
 
Is it as important to prevent a fire or stop the spread of a fire? If you achieve the first then the second becomes less important. For example many people think firewalls are designed to slow the spread of a fire - I don't believe that is true because it won't work. There are there to prevent a fire from an exhaust leak. So expanding on this concept design a fuel system to try  to prevent a fire first.
 
Here is the safest fire system that I can conceive of.  I know no one with this so it tells you that compromises are the order of the day.  The tank should be in the strongest part of the airplane. That is likely the forward fuselage. The tank should be made of a flexile material such as used in racing fuel cells. There should be a holding cage (tank) and there should be no sharp items near. Note that fuel cell are combustible but in a crash the tank likely won't brake apart. In a fire even aluminum will melt. If stressed aluminum will break.
 
The lines too should be short as possible and flexible. Internal metal bellows lines are large and expensive but are probably the best. Rubber hoses with wire reinforcement, internal or external are likely nearly just as good.
 
Many Van's RV owners believe that fuel in the wings are safer that fuel in the fuselage. Unfortunately this is not true and wings are fragile and the fuel is still close enough to be a problem.
 
 

 
Quote:
Subject: Combustible lines
From: mario.giacummo(at)gmail.com
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:02:23 -0700
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "giacummo" <mario.giacummo(at)gmail.com>

Hello,

Like allways asking for something... I build a wing tank, and I want to know if the lines (from the tank to de gascolator) could be of rubber. I ask because i never saw any one of this kind, all looks like aluminium. If there is a reason why not to do it with rubber I will be very gratefull if someone can explain me .

By the way.. this weekend I install the firewall with a ceramic fiber insulation of 10mm.. It was a little bit gross in width, but it was the thinner I could find. The firewall is a galvanizad sheet of 0.48 mm. It gave me a lot of work because I put it with the engine in place, but after an hour of folding and unfolding it stay in place ;o)

--------
Mario Giacummo
Photos here: http://goo.gl/wh7M4
Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.com




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larharris2(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject: Combustible lines Reply with quote

The firewall cannot 'stop' the spread of a fire. But it may slow the fire in the engine compartment for a long enough time for you to get on the ground before all the good pieces are consumed. Maybe not, especially in a wood-and-fabric plane. 'Can't hurt, might help' to take your best shot at it, though.
 
Good food for thought.
 
Lorenzo
 

 
From: brian.kenney(at)live.ca
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Combustible lines
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:46:03 -0400

There is another discussion starting suggesting that the fuselage is the right place for the tank. Please read that.
 
Rubber hoses are still in the mainstream of certified aircraft. They are reliable and easy to purchase but be sure you  get the right type.
 
Adding the term combustible to your question opens a huge can of worms. It is a question with no correct answer and many, many, opinions as no one wants to be killed by a post crash inferno .
 
Is it as important to prevent a fire or stop the spread of a fire? If you achieve the first then the second becomes less important. For example many people think firewalls are designed to slow the spread of a fire - I don't believe that is true because it won't work. There are there to prevent a fire from an exhaust leak. So expanding on this concept design a fuel system to try  to prevent a fire first.
 
Here is the safest fire system that I can conceive of.  I know no one with this so it tells you that compromises are the order of the day.  The tank should be in the strongest part of the airplane. That is likely the forward fuselage. The tank should be made of a flexile material such as used in racing fuel cells. There should be a holding cage (tank) and there should be no sharp items near. Note that fuel cell are combustible but in a crash the tank likely won't brake apart. In a fire even aluminum will melt. If stressed aluminum will break.
 
The lines too should be short as possible and flexible. Internal metal bellows lines are large and expensive but are probably the best. Rubber hoses with wire reinforcement, internal or external are likely nearly just as good.
 
Many Van's RV owners believe that fuel in the wings are safer that fuel in the fuselage. Unfortunately this is not true and wings are fragile and the fuel is still close enough to be a problem. 
            
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