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582 breakin

 
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jareds(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: 582 breakin Reply with quote

Greetings listers. Hope there are still a few out there monitoring the
list.
Finally got the 582 running again.
Going through the breakin. switched from a clutch gearbox to a straight
c (no clutches)
Havnt switched prop pitch since before engine rebuild.
4300 is top rpm tied down on ground.
2500 is idle
Temps got up to about 190 before i interupted them to let it cool down.
I was using green anti freeze so will drain and put aluminum type in at
5050.

1. IN flight i used to get 6000 rpm with same pitch. Will my pitch be
ok prior to test flight?
2. Is 2500 too high for static prop and gearbox?
3. Do any of you remember getting higher rpms during ground breakin?
4. Should i change fuel pumps after 2 years of fox sitting? Ran good
during breakin?
5. Temps have always been a problem... i lowered radiator long ago and
built a little scoop for it and got along ok but not great. Always had
to be careful. Any new suggestions in 10 years or more??

Thanks

Jared


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mikeperkins



Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: 582 breakin Reply with quote

After I replaced the crankshaft in my 532, I had to repitch the prop. I was getting about 5200 RPM during static runups, when before the crankshaft exchange I was getting 6200. It turns out I needed to flatten the pitch by about 1/2 degree. I got some good advice from the Rotax dealer who did the work, which was that after the crankshaft replacement, I had a "new" engine. I've learned over time that the most important gauge is the EGT. An improperly loaded two-stroke can cause the EGTs to soar. The EAA has a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaLb-BzqT4
Although static RPM is not the best indication of having the correct prop pitch, my experience is that 6000 to 6200 is about right. I then get 6600 at full power at Vx. But even still, I have to watch my EGTs during a powered descent when the engine is unloaded like that - they can easily exceed 1200 F. Watching the video was the best thing I ever did for understanding how to tune the engine. But what the folks who know two-strokes say is don't mess with the mixture adjustment - instead, set the mixture as it was from the factory tune the EGT by changing the pitch. I've found that to be great advice. If you want to talk about this sometime, email me at flybyewire at gmail dot com and we can exchange phone numbers.


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Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
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mikeperkins



Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: 582 breakin Reply with quote

Jared, I've been flying with the same fuel pump, the original Minuki, for 20 years, but it sat around for two years before I ever flew it, so it's 22 years old. I carry a spare with me, though, and I have a fuel pressure gauge. For a few years, I even ran with fuel having some ethanol in it (because I live in Illinois where corn is king). I'd say, if it's giving you pressure, it's probably ok. But that's one thing about fuel pumps - they work just fine until they don't anymore.

My engine can idle down below 2000 RPM, but that's just a matter of getting the carbs to close all the way. At that point, the RPM is simply what the RPM is going to be.

On hot days, I've seen coolant temps at 220 F, but it's never been a problem except that some coolant will go into the overflow. Otherwise I usually see 160 - 190.


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Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: 582 breakin Reply with quote

Jared,
I now fly a 912 but use to fly the 2-strokes, here is my 2-cents worth. If
you are concerned about your fuel pump at a minimum I would disassemble and
check the condition of the diaphragms, I would rebuild every 2-3 years
simply because it is cheap insurance. When you tie the plane down in the
yard and run it up to break in the motor the RPM will be less than when you
are in the air, when flying, as you gain speed the prop unloads and the RPMs
go up, so on the ground you do not want to see engine redline at full
throttle, I would guess if your redline is 6000 you might shoot for 5000,
but you will not know that you have set the pitch correct until you fly it
straight and level at WOT and do not over rev.. You will also want to be
very aware of your RPMs on the first flight, it will be easy to over rev
after the climb out. On the carbs and idle, I start by synchronizing my
carbs using a small drill bit slid in the throat under the slide to adjust
the height of the throttle slides so they are exact and they both are
hanging on the cables so they will begin to move together at the exact same
time, if your idle is too high drop to a smaller drill bit and repeat, after
that if you have a slack tube or set of suction gauges you can dial them
even closer.

Lloyd Cudnohufsky
Model 5 Outback
912ul IVO IFA
Northern Mi.

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jareds(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:21 pm    Post subject: 582 breakin Reply with quote

Hi mike.... long time..
Thanks for the great response.
List has been pretty quiet so wasn't sure if i'd get any responses.

How is sky star doing and john mcbean??
I sure hope they keep going!!

I'd love to exchange phone numbers just in case.
Everything you said came rushing back to my pea sized little brain and
while i got some varying responses .. yours rung true as the one that
worked the best regarding rpms and temps and setting prop.
I was afraid that 4300 tied down on a windy day was no where near
enough. Gonna re pitch it and try again for 5000 tied down and i think
if i look at my notes from 12 -14 years ago i will see what maybe
worked.. if i can find them.

Either way its always good to bounce stuff off someone and unfortunately
after moving from the DC area to SD there are few and far between pilots
and even fewer who fly experimental that haven't died off or lost
ability to fly! Sad...
Anyway.. glad we reconnected.

605 314 4885 is my cell
Stop in ANY TIME if you are in the vicinity of SD.

Regards,

Jared.

On 5/19/2014 8:25 AM, mikeperkins wrote:
Quote:


After I replaced the crankshaft in my 532, I had to repitch the prop. I was getting about 5200 RPM during static runups, when before the crankshaft exchange I was getting 6200. It turns out I needed to flatten the pitch by about 1/2 degree. I got some good advice from the Rotax dealer who did the work, which was that after the crankshaft replacement, I had a "new" engine. I've learned over time that the most important gauge is the EGT. An improperly loaded two-stroke can cause the EGTs to soar. The EAA has a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaLb-BzqT4
Although static RPM is not the best indication of having the correct prop pitch, my experience is that 6000 to 6200 is about right. I then get 6600 at full power at Vx. But even still, I have to watch my EGTs during a powered descent when the engine is unloaded like that - they can easily exceed 1200 F. Watching the video was the best thing I ever did for understanding how to tune the engine. But what the folks who know two-strokes say is don't mess with the mixture adjustment - instead, set the mixture as it was from the factory tune the EGT by changing the pitch. I've found that to be great advice. If you want to talk about this sometime, email me at flybyewire at gmail dot com and we can exchange phone numbers.

--------
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423442#423442



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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 2:46 am    Post subject: 582 breakin Reply with quote

here in michigan we have a mod 2 ? 582 owner wanting to sell out and trade up to a tripacer

Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker
Michigan Sport Pilot Repair
http://michigansportpilotrepair.com
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
Great Sails - Sailmaker
for Ultralight & Light Sport
(989)513-3022

 


From: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Re: 582 breakin


--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net (jareds(at)verizon.net)>

Hi mike.... long time..
Thanks for the great response.
List has been pretty quiet so wasn't sure if i'd get any responses.

How is sky star doing and john mcbean??
I sure hope they keep going!!

I'd love to exchange phone numbers just in case.
Everything you said came rushing back to my pea sized little brain and
while i got some varying responses .. yours rung true as the one that
worked the best regarding rpms and temps and setting prop.
I was afraid that 4300 tied down on a windy day was no where near
enough. Gonna re pitch it and try again for 5000 tied down and i think
if i look at my notes from 12 -14 years ago i will see what maybe
worked.. if i can find them.

Either way its always good to bounce stuff off someone and unfortunately
after moving from the DC area to SD there are few and far between pilots
and even fewer who fly experimental that haven't died off or lost
ability to fly! Sad...
Anyway.. glad we reconnected.

605 314 4885 is my cell
Stop in ANY TIME if you are in the vicinity of SD.

Regards,

Jared.

On 5/19/2014 8:25 AM, mikeperkins wrote:
Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins"<flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>

After I replaced the crankshaft in my 532, I had to repitch the prop. I was getting about 5200 RPM during static runups, when before the crankshaft exchange I was getting 6200. It turns out I needed to flatten the pitch by about 1/2 degree. I got some good advice from the Rotax dealer who did the work, which was that after the crankshaft replacement, I had a "new" engine. I've learned over time that the most important gauge is the EGT. An improperly loaded two-stroke can cause the EGTs to soar. The EAA has a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaLb-BzqT4
Although static RPM is not the best indication of having the correct prop pitch, my experience is that 6000 to 6200 is about right. I then get 6600 at full power at Vx. But even still, I have to watch my EGTs during a powered descent when the engine is unloaded like that - they can easily exceed 1200 F. Watching the video was the best thing I ever did for understanding how to tune the engine. But what the folks who know two-strokes say is don't mess with the mixture adjustment - instead, set the mixture as it was from the factory tune the EGT by changing the pitch. I've found that to be great advice. If you want to talk about this sometime, email me at flybyewire at gmail dot com and we can exchange phone numbers.

--------
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423442#423442


http://www.matronics.co========================http://forums.matronics.com< -Mats.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution==============





[quote][b]


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Pat Reilly



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: 582 breakin Reply with quote

Jared, I just reinstalled my 582 with a new GA 72" Warp Drive prop. I've got it set at 12 1/2 degrees of pitch. That is what I had on my old Warp drive prop. I'm idling down around 1600 rpm and max static on the ground is 5500 rpm with the engine at full operating temp. It would wind up to 5700 rpm before it warmed to full operating temp, say down around 110 degree water temp. I'm not sure what static rpm should be on this set up. I looked at an old CPS catalog which used to be the Rotax bible before they were bought out. But, couldn't find reference to static rpm.
Can anybody verify what static rpm should be? Jared's 4300 rpm static sounds low.
You don't mention prop specs Jared. They would help.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL  

On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:33 PM, jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net (jareds(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net (jareds(at)verizon.net)>

Greetings listers.  Hope there are still a few out there monitoring the list.
Finally got the 582 running again.
Going through the breakin.  switched from a clutch gearbox to a straight c (no clutches)
Havnt switched prop pitch since before engine rebuild.
4300 is top rpm tied down on ground.
2500 is idle
Temps got up to about 190 before i interupted them to let it cool down.
I was using  green anti freeze so will drain and put aluminum type in at 5050.

1.  IN flight i used to get 6000 rpm with same pitch.  Will my pitch be ok prior to test flight?
2.  Is 2500 too high for static prop and gearbox?
3.  Do any of you remember getting higher rpms during ground breakin?
4.  Should i change fuel pumps after 2 years of fox sitting? Ran good during breakin?
5.  Temps have always been a problem... i lowered radiator long ago and built a little scoop for it and got along ok but not great.  Always had to be careful.  Any new suggestions in 10 years or more??

Thanks

Jared

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====================================
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
e -
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t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================




--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]


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mikeperkins



Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: 582 breakin Reply with quote

Hi Pat,

Jared and I talked the other day offline. I mentioned my 532 static RPM was about 5800. But what I was shooting for was a Vx climb of 6600 RPM. When I finally got that, my static speed was 5800 RPM. But when I had a new crankshaft installed, along with the necessary seals and re-timed, I was getting only 4200 or so. The certified rebuilder's recommendation was to reduce the pitch because I had a "new" engine. I thought he was crazy because I was already convinced he'd screwed something up. But in fact by taking some pitch off the prop, I got back to about 6000 static. I'm also getting 6800 RPM on a Vx climb instead of 6600. So I probably need to add back in about 1/4 degree to get back 6600 again. But my overall performance numbers are close to what they were before the rebuild, so I'm not worried that I lost horsepower when it was rebuilt. Rather, the torque/RPM curve probably just moved somewhat.

The one thing I've used as a rule is to not run my engine at high power until the coolant temp stabilizes. I don't exceed 3000 RPM until it does. The cylinder bores on the Rotax 2-strokes are round but the pistons are cam-ground, eccentric by about .010". That compensates for the cylinders' uneven expansion when everything heats up to operating temp. But at lower temperatures, the piston/cylinder clearances are not correct, and that often leads to scored pistons, which eventually leads to cold seizures. Following that rule has been pretty good for my engine; the pistons and cylinders are still looking good after 385 hours. I get the feeling that the big oil debate comes down to something else - full warm-ups prior to full power, getting the prop load matched to the engine, and watching the EGTs. (What I mean by matching the prop load to the engine is to get max RPM at max throttle in a Vx or Vy climb, your choice.)

It's still possible in my airplane to exceed the 1200 degree EGT limit. I find that if I'm in a cruise descent with low power, say 30 percent, my EGTs soar. When I see that, I pull up to load the engine again and add a little power. Nothing brings the EGTs down quicker than that. It screws up my descent profile, but it helps the engine.

The max RPM for a 582 is listed as 6800 (for 5 minutes), whereas my 532 is 6600. So your numbers will be different than mine. But I think the principles are the same.

Good seeing you here again, Pat. Hope things are well with you.


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Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
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