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Panel layout

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dave.thompson(at)verizon.
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: Panel layout

I for one have enjoyed the discussions on TB, TC & AI.   

   

OK, this should give you old guys chuckle. Sorry if this is too far off subject.  

   

Qualification or Disqualification:  

   

I am 23 years out of currency with only 125 hours in C-150 & C-172s plus 5 hours in my fathers Quickie and about 50 unlogged hours in our B1RD ultralight. I am tooling up (both physically and mentally) to build a 601XL/Corvair. I plan to get current again in the rental 601XL at the local FBO when mine gets close to flying.  

   

Now that I have finished building my shop and am waiting for kit money, I have been playing around drawing panel layouts using Microsoft Visio. Somewhere in the past I found a great article on typical instrument layout. It discussed typical T configuration and six-pack etc layouts. I have lost it now that I really need it. Can anyone direct me to sources of info on proper and typical flight instrument layouts? I will be flying VFR Day until I obtain enough time and instruction to properly transition into VFR night and so on.  I want to plan my panel accordingly. Most likely, at first, I will have covered instrument holes for later upgrades. I want a proper panel with the right things in the right places. I plan to use only 3-3/8 inch flight instrumentation, no glass panels.  

   

At this point I have an Alt, electric T&B and whisky compass salvaged from the Quickie. I plan to add an AS, VSI and eventually an electric AI. I am not sure what the PROPER arrangement should be.  

   

I have read the aeroelectric connection with updates three times. I have not started the electrical design yet. I have to pull lots of rivets first.  

   

Thank you in advance for any input.  

   

Dave Thompson  

dave.thompson(at)verizon.net (dave.thompson(at)verizon.net)  

601XL rudder workshop rudder, building a Corvair

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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: Panel layout

In a message dated 6/24/06 6:30:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

dave.thompson(at)verizon.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Most likely, at first, I

  will have covered instrument holes for later upgrades. I want a proper 

panel
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    with the right things in the right places. I plan to use only 3-3/8 inch

  flight instrumentation, no glass panels.

===================================
	


Dave:



The basic 6 pack view is available in ACS Catalog.  But, I have to ask WHY no 

glass panels?  You can save TIME, MONEY, PANEL SPACE and make your instal so 

much nicer, easier and develop a 100% better scan.  There are so many other 

advantages such as resale value, lighter in weight less materials, lower points 

of failure.  AND if you want radiancy just and a second unit and second 

battery.  Why go backwards in time even the new planes are going glass and they have 

to fight with the FAA to do so ... You do not!



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



PS

The gages are 3 1/8" Diameter

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: Panel layout

In a message dated 6/24/2006 5:30:00 A.M. Central Standard Time,  dave.thompson(at)verizon.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

I am 23 years out of currency with only 125 hours in    C-150 & C-172s plus 5 hours in my fathers Quickie and about 50 unlogged    hours in our B1RD ultralight. I am tooling up (both physically and mentally)    to build a 601XL/Corvair. I plan to get current again in the rental 601XL at    the local FBO when mine gets close to    flying. 	


 

Good Morning Dave,

  

 First, let me welcome you to the list and congratulate you for the  accomplishments you have managed at such a young age. We need more folks like  you if General Aviation is to survive at all. There are too many like me around  and too few like you!

  

 May I suggest that you consider making your instrument panel easily  removable?

  

 Your needs and your capabilities will change as you step through the  various stages of flight.

 By making a removable panel section, you can make the changes relatively  painless when your needs do change.

  

 One quick comment on instrument size.  You mentioned three and three  eights inch standard size. If you were referring to over all size, that IS close  to the average, but if you were referring to the opening in the panel, three and  ONE eighths inch is the norm.  The overall size of the various instruments  does vary quite a bit, especially on modern units. Back in the olden days,  especially during WWII, the sizes were very much standardized for other than the  attitude gyro and the directional gyro which were relatively large.

  

 Back to the placement of individual instruments.

  

 The so called standard six pack was a development of the late fifties and  early sixties. Using the basic instruments of the day, tests were conducted to  determine ease of use for IFR flight.  What is optimum for IFR flight is  not necessarily optimum for VFR flight. Not only that, but the type of  navigational instruments installed does affect the optimum placement of the  instruments used for IFR reference.

  

 The tests showed that a human eye can move two "standard" instruments to  the right or left about as easily as it can check one instrument up or down.  Therefore, if you wish to add another instrument to the "Six Pack" it is more  efficient to add it to one side or the other than it is to add it above or  below. That rule is somewhat dependent on just where the needed information is  located on the instrument being used.

  

 One example would be the placement of the vertical speed instrument, if one  is to be installed (It is NOT a required instrument for IFR flight, but most of  us like to have one.)

  

 I like to put the altimeter to the right of whatever instrument is my  primary reference instrument. I then try to place the VSI immediately to the  right of the altimeter. The needle on the VSI is generally hinged on the right  side of the instrument which means the part that moves is on the left. By  placing the VSI to the right of the altimeter, the distance between the VSI  needle and the altimeter is reduced. That is a "Good Thing"!

  

 A little more history. In the days when we were not allowed to use an  attitude gyro in instrument flight training, the most common arrangement was for  the T&B to be in the middle and in the prime real estate of the panel with  the altimeter on one side and the airspeed on the other. When the standard panel  was pushed by the authorities in the fifties, they suggested that the airspeed  be on the left and the altimeter on the right. That is the way most current  panels are laid out.

  

 The VSI instrument , as I said before will be easiest to read if it is to  the right of the altimeter for basic flight maneuvers, but if you decide to  shoot some sort of a vertically guided approach such as an ILS or LPV, it is  nice to have VSI to the right of the glide path needle. You see, we have already  come up with two different possibilities for the VSI and it is not a required  instrument!

  

 That is why I believe you should plan for change in the future. Don't lock  yourself into a fixed panel if you can possibly avoid doing so.

  

 Next comment. I believe the future is in the glass cockpit. The placement  of auxiliary instruments is going to be dependent on which instruments are  included within the glass chosen and what style of navigation is to be  used.

  

 One of the things that made it fairly easy for we ancient folks to  successfully fly IFR without any Attitude Gyro or Directional Gyro was that we  navigated primarily by listening. We did not have to change frequencies or use  our eyes to tell which way to turn. 

  

 We just listened to the A and N signals, developed a mental picture of our  location and made turns using the turn needle as appropriate.  We hardly  ever had to talk on the radio and we never had to take time away from flying the  airplane to tune a radio, adjust a CDI course or fiddle with a GPS.

  

 What does all of this have to do with your panel layout?

  

 You must first decide what you want to do with your airplane. After that,  you can decide on instruments to be used and the placement thereof.

  

 See why I think the panel should easily removable?

  

 Since you do want to move in stages and I believe you are interested in  gaining knowledge, my suggestion would be that you plan to have a new Gee Whiz  combo glass panel as the primary use of panel space. If it were my airplane and  you were one of my grandchildren, I would suggest that you start out by  installing a nominal "three and one eighth inch" size T&B in the center  of your first panel. To the right of that, an altimeter, and to the right of  that, a VSI if you want one. To the left of the T&B, I would suggest the  airspeed indicator. To the left of the AS, a clock.

  

 Directly above the T&B , I would place a nice stable old fashioned  "Whiskey Compass."

  

 That would give you the panel we all used when we first started to actively  fly IFR. It would also provide a very complete back up to whatever glass you  decide to use in the future. When you decide on the glass, it would replace the  whiskey compass. In these days of GPS, the whiskey compass and the clock are  primarily things to remind us of whence we came!

  

 While you are waiting for the funds to purchase the more modern stuff, you  can practice flying with the T&B and gain the confidence in the instrument  that will allow you to use it as a last ditch survival tool should it ever be  needed.

  

 It is a LOT easier to learn to fly with a T&B if the panel has no other  information vying for your attention!

  

 One more point. I do not recommend VFR flight at night unless you have the  capability to fly the airplane by reference to instruments. 

  

 Since there is no requirement for instruments during night flight, any  instrument you have that will keep you right side up is legal to use and will do  the job. If you elect to start off with nothing other than a basic Dynon unit,  that would certainly be a very wise choice and would probably be more than  adequate for night flight. If you desire to start out with a T&B, it will  require that you take training and gain a considerable amount of skill before it  will serve as a night time instrument. 

  

 The T&B is a LOT cheaper and it has a known reliability factor, but it  does take training to learn how to use it with enough confidence such that you  will use it to stay alive.

  

 My Stearman is not equipped for IFR flight, but I do fly it at night.  Because of that, I have it equipped with two T&Bs. One is vacuum powered and  the other is electric.

  

 If I do lose visual reference at night, I know that I can keep it right  side up until I am once again able to fly the airplane via visual reference. The  failure mode of a T&B is such that it is very easy to tell whether or  not it is working. 

  

 If it wiggles, it is working. 

  

 If it stops wiggling, it is not working. No leans and no conflicting  information is provided by the failed instrument. 

  

 For what it is worth, I have a two and a quarter inch electric T&B in  the lower center of the panel. Above that is the three and an eighth inch vacuum  T&B. Above the vacuum T&B is a relatively large whiskey compass. To  the right of the vacuum T&B is an altimeter and to the right of that is a  VSI. To the left of the vacuum T&B is the airspeed. To the left of that is a  G meter.  I also have a Garmin 295 that is mounted where it can be easily  referenced without interfering with my view of the installed panel.

  

 Hopefully, by the time you are ready to actually fly at night or IFR,  'Lectric Bob, or someone else, will have developed an autopilot that will make  the ability to fly by reference to the instruments an ancient and unnecessary  art. In the meantime, think of all the fun you will have learning the  intricacies of the T&B.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503

  

 Do Not Archive

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dave.thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: Panel layout

Bob & the other Guys,  

   

Thank you all for your suggestions. That is exactly why I posted the original question. I agree with the ideas of using glass panels. That is what I really want. However, with my limited funding, I would rather spend the $1k on a good carburetor which will allow safer flying. I need to be frugal with the parts I use and GET IN THE AIR. At the same time I do not want to skimp on the quality. That is why I plan to make removable panels that can be redesigned, upgraded and replaced at a later date.   

   

Thank you Barry, the page on AS is exactly what I was looking for. (Page 377, 2003/2004 catalog) I will be going to the Corona AS store next week and will get an updated catalog.  

   

I have gotten a response from someone who might host my panel layout Visio templates for download. If anyone is interested, we will post when available.  

   

Bob,  

You did not miss read my post; I did not fully explain my self. Also, I know, I know, the instruments are 3-1/8 inch, not 3-3/8 in. That was a typo error .   

   

Dave Thompson  

dave.thompson(at)verizon.net

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