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LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas
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dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:19 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Have had iced up pitot on a Seneca coming out of Doncaster. You are then on Power/Performance!!

Dave



Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 6 Sep 2014, at 16:17, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

 

 

 

 Dave

 

 Unfortunately you can get icing when not in 'known icing conditions'. Known ice requirements are more about prop and airframe de-icing ability than pitot heat.

 

 Pete

 

 

 

> On 06/09/14 15:54, David Watts wrote:

> 

> 

> Tony,

> 

> Pitot heat will not be part of the equation in the UK as the CAA have specified that the new IR permission for Permit Aircraft will specifically not include flight into known icing conditions, nor flight near thunderstorm activity.

> 

> Dave Watts

> 

>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 14:56, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying.

>> Regards

>> Tony Renshaw

>> 

>> 

>> Sent from my iPad

>> 

>>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Hi Peter.

>>> Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

>>> But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

>>> Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

>>> The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

>>> Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

>>> Alan

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Read this topic online here:

>>> 

>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Dave



In truth this is no more restrictive than for a certified Twin Com with 

full wing and prop deice!  My aeroplane used to be certified for 'known 

light ice' but that was rescinded way back when.



Pete



On 06/09/14 17:10, David Watts wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Pete,



 I realise that of course, I was just getting at the spirit of the way it will be implemented here in that we will be pretty restricted.  I am looking at flying IR in a Europa as a get out of jail rather than let's go flying regardless of the sort of rubbish weather we might encounter.



 Dave



> On 6 Sep 2014, at 16:17, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Dave

>

> Unfortunately you can get icing when not in 'known icing conditions'. Known ice requirements are more about prop and airframe de-icing ability than pitot heat.

>

> Pete

>

>> On 06/09/14 15:54, David Watts wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Tony,

>>

>> Pitot heat will not be part of the equation in the UK as the CAA have specified that the new IR permission for Permit Aircraft will specifically not include flight into known icing conditions, nor flight near thunderstorm activity.

>>

>> Dave Watts

>>

>>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 14:56, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>> 

>>>

>>> Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying.

>>> Regards

>>> Tony Renshaw

>>>

>>>

>>> Sent from my iPad

>>>

>>>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> 

>>>>

>>>> Hi Peter.

>>>> Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

>>>> But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

>>>> Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

>>>> The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

>>>> Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

>>>> Alan

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Read this topic online here:

>>>>

>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

>

>

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Dynon heat regulated pitot tube works great.

Christoph

#223



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 6, 2014, at 10:57, "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying. 

 Regards

 Tony Renshaw

 

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

> On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi Peter.

> Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

> But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

> Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

> The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

> Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

> Alan

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 395
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.



Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.



Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.



And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.



Yes I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.



So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Jonathan,

Couldn't agree more.

Tim



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 9/09/2014, at 10:07 am, "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.

 

 Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.

 

 Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.

 

 And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.

 

 Yes I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.

 

 So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430200#430200

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Jonathon…thanks for your educated and well-founded opinion…particularly your emphasis on the importance of true “currency”, not just by-the-book currency…similar reasoning has kept me in the ranks of VFR aviators…F.



On Sep 8, 2014, at 3:07 PM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.

 

 Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.

 

 Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.

 

 And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.

 

 Yes I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.

 

 So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430200#430200

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Me too. 

Thanks Jonathon. 

Kevin



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Jonathonâ€¦thanks for your educated and well-founded opinionâ€¦particularly your emphasis on the importance of true â€œcurrencyâ€, not just by-the-book currencyâ€¦similar reasoning has kept me in the ranks of VFR aviatorsâ€¦F.

 

> On Sep 8, 2014, at 3:07 PM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.

> 

> Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.

> 

> Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.

> 

> And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.

> 

> Yes I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.

> 

> So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430200#430200

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:44 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

This is a really interesting discussion and I have to say that I am in total agreement about currency and despite having had an IMC rating for 20+ years do not and will not deliberately fly into IMC conditions as a matter of open choice, I only ever did the rating to use as a challenge to improve my flying and as a last chance get out of jail free card.

I concur with Jonathans comments that if we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.

There are many different standards of build some are stunning some are dogs, even with the annual permit system they still get through ( I have  to say that the same happens with CAA and EASA aircraft as well). Do we really want these flying blind as a matter of routine above our homes and families?

The other one

 



Sent to you by David Joyce

www.eastmidsspas.com  

 

PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT

The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS

160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island

 



Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755

 









     

   From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, 8 September 2014, 23:44

 Subject: Re: Europa-List:  Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>



Jonathonâ€¦thanks for your educated and well-founded opinionâ€¦particularly your emphasis on the importance of true â€œcurrencyâ€, not just by-the-book currencyâ€¦similar reasoning has kept me in the ranks of VFR aviatorsâ€¦F.



On Sep 8, 2014, at 3:07 PM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military  and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.

 

 Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.

 

 Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.

 

 And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.

 

 Yes  I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.

 

 So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430200#430200

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.matronics.com/Navigatorsp;              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
	


=   --> <a href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blanknbsp;                    t; <a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" =======

ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:13 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Fred,

I also echo all that you say on the subject, particularly re true currency!



Ivan



--

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:57 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

â€œif we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.â€

 

David, I think this is a bit sensationalistic and flies in the face of the facts.Â  Pilots in the USA have been able to fly IFR in home built aircraft for many years and the ground is not littered with smoking wreckage.

 

The very understandable comments from the professional pilots in our community are also not supported by the stats.Â  There are a large number of Â (UK) IMC rated pilots flying PA28s, for example, and I think there has only been two accidents in total since the IMCR was introduced.Â  Compare this with the number of accidents caused by VFR pilots scud running.

 

All of these issues have been fully and professionally examined as part of the work that has led to the present trials that are taking place. That is why it has taken 6 years to get to this stage.Â  Any home built aircraft that is approved for night/IFR will have been through a very thorough testing process that is at least equivalent to that required for a certified aircraft.

 

Regards

 

Brian Davies

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID JOYCE

Sent: 09 September 2014 10:41

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

 

 This is a really interesting discussion and I have to say that I am in total agreement about currency and despite having had an IMC rating for 20+ years do not and will not deliberately fly into IMC conditions as a matter of open choice, I only ever did the rating to use as a challenge to improve my flying and as a last chance get out of jail free card.



 



I concur with Jonathans comments that if we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.



 



There are many different standards of build some are stunning some are dogs, even with the annual permit system they still get through ( I have to say that the same happens with CAA and EASA aircraft as well). if we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.

The other one



 



Sent to you by David Joyce

www.eastmidsspas.com  



 



PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT



The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS



160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island



 

Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755

 

 



From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Monday, 8 September 2014, 23:44

Subject: Re: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>



Jonathonâ€¦thanks for your educated and well-founded opinionâ€¦particularly your emphasis on the importance of true â€œcurrencyâ€, not just by-the-book currencyâ€¦similar reasoning has kept me in the ranks of VFR aviatorsâ€¦F.



On Sep 8, 2014, at 3:07 PM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.

 

 Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.

 

 Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.

 

 And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.

 

 Yes I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.

 

 So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430200#430200

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.matronics.com/Navigatorsp;             - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
	


=  --> 



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cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Brian

I fully agree, professional pilots engage the autopilot for most of there flights. They earn there money when something goes wrong. 

And sometimes they don't like keeping a plane in a stall from 30,000 + feet until hits the water. 

I have only had my IMC for a year and did the training and test in my Europa. Best bit of training I have done. 

Let's not try and kill permit aeroplanes being allowed to fly in IMC when the facts don't support the predicted doom and gloom. 



Kevin Challis



On 9 Sep 2014, at 14:56, "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)> wrote:

[quote]  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

â€œif we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.â€

 

David, I think this is a bit sensationalistic and flies in the face of the facts.  Pilots in the USA have been able to fly IFR in home built aircraft for many years and the ground is not littered with smoking wreckage.

 

The very understandable comments from the professional pilots in our community are also not supported by the stats.  There are a large number of  (UK) IMC rated pilots flying PA28s, for example, and I think there has only been two accidents in total since the IMCR was introduced.  Compare this with the number of accidents caused by VFR pilots scud running.

 

All of these issues have been fully and professionally examined as part of the work that has led to the present trials that are taking place. That is why it has taken 6 years to get to this stage.  Any home built aircraft that is approved for night/IFR will have been through a very thorough testing process that is at least equivalent to that required for a certified aircraft.

 

Regards

 

Brian Davies

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of DAVID JOYCE

Sent: 09 September 2014 10:41

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

 

 This is a really interesting discussion and I have to say that I am in total agreement about currency and despite having had an IMC rating for 20+ years do not and will not deliberately fly into IMC conditions as a matter of open choice, I only ever did the rating to use as a challenge to improve my flying and as a last chance get out of jail free card.



 



I concur with Jonathans comments that if we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.



 



There are many different standards of build some are stunning some are dogs, even with the annual permit system they still get through ( I have to say that the same happens with CAA and EASA aircraft as well). if we have a plethora of Permit built and operated aircraft flying / departing / returning under IFR we will inevitably be reading about its tragic results, I would be devastated to read of such tragedies in the press.

The other one



 



Sent to you by David Joyce

www.eastmidsspas.com  



 



PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT



The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS



160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island



 

Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755

 

 



From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Monday, 8 September 2014, 23:44

Subject: Re: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>



Jonathonâ€¦thanks for your educated and well-founded opinionâ€¦particularly your emphasis on the importance of true â€œcurrencyâ€, not just by-the-book currencyâ€¦similar reasoning has kept me in the ranks of VFR aviatorsâ€¦F.



On Sep 8, 2014, at 3:07 PM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 Permit me to annoy you all intensely. After more than four decades of earning my living as a pilot, military and civilian, and having held a full instrument rating for over 32 years, wild horses couldn't drag me and my Europa into IMC or night conditions, even if my aircraft had all the required bells and whistles.

 

 Single-engined in those conditions doesn't seem wise to me, especially in a glass-fibre airframe in conditions where you can't see and avoid potential lightning activity.

 

 Furthermore procedural instrument flying is a skill where you need to keep very current. An hour or so each month just isn't going to cut it. Me and my colleagues find that just a week or two of holiday before resuming flight operations, puts most pilots (if they're being honest) somewhat behind the mental drag curve for a day or two after returning to duty.

 

 And we have the advantage of an Airbus suite of EFIS, Flight Directors and unbeatable automation, plus two pairs of eyes and ears to monitor the situation.

 

 Yes I have also flown IMC in earlier days as single pilot with no stabilisation nor autoflight systems, doing things like QGH and GCA in the military. That would make anyone sweat.

 

 So have fun if you must and I'll hope not to read of any sad CFIT stories.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430200#430200

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.matronics.com/Navigatorsp;             - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
	


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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hello everyone.



There has been a lot of discussion about flying the Europa IFR on the forum

so I'll toss in my 2 cents worth.  I have both and ILS and GPS approach set

up in my aircraft.  My experience is that it isn't a very good IFR platform

at all. It's just too light and as such, difficult to set up a stable

approach.  I have personal minimums of 600' on an ILS and 800' and GPS

approach and quite frankly I'll only do that if I am super current, and the

reality that this I am almost never super current.  I can count on one hand

the number of times I have done an instrument approach in my Europa.



What I do find the IFR capability useful for is to leave an area of marginal

weather and fly to a place that is forecasted to be clear VFR.



I echo Johnathan's comments, flying two pilot operations in multiengine type

rated aircraft is a whole different world and a much better situation than

single pilot IFR.  In days gone by I'd fly my Piper Comanche down to

minimums, but not anymore, I guess I must be getting old.



One other thought that Johnathan hadn't mentioned, I have encountered un

forecasted icing and even the slightest amount of ice on the Europa's wings

is a horrible thought to contemplate.



So hopefully if Johnathan hasn't annoyed you all intensely, I have.... lol 



Cheers, Paul

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

I read this week in Pilot the report of the TB10 fatality last year near Bristol, and thought it was a shame he had no confidence in IMC even though he had a few hundred hours PIC and a plane equipt for it. From his track he looked to be in a real panic. 

Just a few times a year I get in near IMC ish weather, haze, or haze and sun, some low cloud or cloud going from 2/8 to 6/8, maybe having started over the sea only to find a bank of mist/cloud at 500ft. I quite like to fly in a variety of conditions and deliberately fly all year round. Sticking to CAV OK is a mistake.

For me its about the confidence. I just want to feel confident and calm, trained and equipt in inadvertent marginal conditions. I guess I don't really need the plane certifying as I don't intend to take off in IMC but it would be good to have it and do my bi annual validations on it. One more aid to confidence. 

It is more twitchy than a PA28 and even in a PA28 flying for any period in thick cloud is stressful with the changes in air density turbulence etc so I am not going there on purpose.  

On one hand you have Mr Airbus auto pilot on the other some chap who flies round the world through hour upon hour of horrendous stuff in a flex wing.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

JonSmith

Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

I guess you will have "x" hundred pilots and "x" hundred views on this!  My feeling is that I welcome the possibility that we may one day be given the privilege to be able to consider extending our options on a given occasion if considered appropriate.



The realisation of one's own limitations and those of the aircraft is a vital part of all aspects of aviation, none more so than the proposed Permit IFR operations.  Personal ability and limitations along with aircraft ability and limitations are paramount and need to be fully understood and appreciated always.  But my view is that the permit IFR issue is essentially no different to "IFR operations" in say a Cessna 150 or a C of A Auster for example which has always been allowed.  I personally would be just as happy to go out and conduct the same IFR flight in my Europa that I might go and do in a Cessna 150 that I have been qualified to do for years.  

Yes we do need to consider and realise just what it is we are hoping to be able to be able to do!  I don't think any of us believe that we will suddenly become a true all weather/ go anywhere, anytime you like type operation in our little Europas and go whizzing down the ILS to minimums at Heathrow or Paris Charles de Gaulle on a daily basis with the big boys. But to have the capability (in quiet uncontrolled airspace if you like) to legally climb up through a benign layer of cloud to cruise in the beautiful clear air above and descend down through the layer again into good weather below - and to have the capability if necessary to make a simple ILS approach as a cloud break procedure at say a small quiet regional type airport is not beyond the realms of possibility for many of us.  



I have "dabbled" in the past on a number of occasions to make trips go easier and must say I have always found my Europa a very good instrument platform.  Light, very responsive and stable.  It's sensitive of course but I don't find it at all twitchy.  But I know my limitations and those of my plane and my intention as always, with careful planning and thought is never to overstep those limits.

_________________
G-TERN
Classic Mono

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 395
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

There is one fact which I have already mentioned and which won't go away, regardless of all the various rationalisations about stability and accident statistics in other countries.



Unless an airframe made of glass- or carbon-fibre composite incorporates metal mesh or some other means of dissipating electrical charges, it should be flown very far away from potential lightning.



This can only be achieved by "see and avoid" in the absence of electronic detection devices. Forecasts are next to useless in this context.

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:32 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

The UK CAA and EASA have been moving away from rule based regulation towards

risk based regulation.  They have now accepted that "one size fits all"

regulation has severely damaged general aviation in Europe.  The general

public would expect a lower level of risk to be taken on a public transport

flight where they have no control over the decisions taken to protect them

from harm.  Participants in sports and recreation activities can, if they

want, accept a higher level of risk. E.g. bungee jumping, skiing, water

skiing etc.



In sport and recreational flying we can decide to accept a higher level of

risk if we want.  It is our choice.  Once the regulations have been amended

in the UK it will be our choice to take advantage of the amended regulations

regarding night/IFR in permit aircraft.  The danger to un-involved third

parties is judged to be acceptably low. If the balance of risks do not match

your person risk profile then don't do it.



Jonathon is quite right- a lightning strike in a composite aircraft may well

result in a fatality if no means of dissipating the charge is provided.  You

can mitigate that risk to an extent by not flying IFR (IMC) in conditions

that are conducive to lightning strikes. It will be your, informed, choice

rather than being told what to do by a regulator.



Regards



Brian Davies



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:24 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Brian

One Europa had a lightning strike which took out most of the electronics and the lights.

It happened many miles from the nearest cloud if I remember correctly. 

Graham

        From: Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk>



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)>



Unless an airframe made of glass- or carbon-fibre  composite incorporates

metal mesh or some other means of dissipating electrical charges, it should

be flown very far away from potential lightning.



This can only be achieved by "see and avoid" in the absence of electronic

detection devices. Forecasts are next to useless in this context.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430273#430273





-----

No virus found in this mes"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://w               -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=======

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:16 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi Graham

 

So it could have happened in VFR conditions.  Masses of data examined on this subject, basically showing very low probability but high consequences for composite aircraft. Very different for Public Transport operations, where lightning strikes are common and the consequences are  low. There is a risk from many hazards every time we go flying in less than perfect weather. It is our choice to go flying or stay on the ground.

 

Incidentally, I let my IMCR lapse when I finished building my Europa and I do not intend to renew it.  Too old and too slow now.

 

Regards

 

Brian

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

Sent: 10 September 2014 10:21

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

 

 



Brian

One Europa had a lightning strike which took out most of the electronics and the lights.

It happened many miles from the nearest cloud if I remember correctly. 

Graham

From: Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)>



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)>



Unless an airframe made of glass- or carbon-fibre composite incorporates

metal mesh or some other means of dissipating electrical charges, it should

be flown very far away from potential lightning.



This can only be achieved by "see and avoid" in the absence of electronic

detection devices. Forecasts are next to useless in this context.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430273#430273





-----

No virus found in this mes"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://w               -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=======

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  [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:38 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Brian

I know the feeling! But I think it's not so much speed, more the ability to multitask that declines.

Graham



        From: Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, 10 September 2014, 11:15

 Subject: RE: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

  

 

Hi Graham

  

So it could have happened in VFR conditions.  Masses of data examined on this subject, basically showing very low probability but high consequences for composite aircraft. Very different for Public Transport operations, where lightning strikes are common and the consequences are  low. There is a risk from many hazards every time we go flying in less than perfect weather. It is our choice to go flying or stay on the ground.

  

Incidentally, I let my IMCR lapse when I finished building my Europa and I do not intend to renew it.  Too old and too slow now.

  

Regards

  

Brian

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON

Sent: 10 September 2014 10:21

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

   

  



Brian

One Europa had a lightning strike which took out most of the electronics and the lights.

It happened many miles from the nearest cloud if I remember correctly. 

Graham

From: Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)>



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)>



Unless an airframe made of glass- or carbon-fibre composite incorporates

metal mesh or some other means of dissipating electrical charges, it should

be flown very far away from potential lightning.



This can only be achieved by "see and avoid" in the absence of electronic

detection devices. Forecasts are next to useless in this context.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430273#430273





-----

No virus found in this mes"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://w               -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=======



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 [quote][b]

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Ha ha Graham..... that would be me that took a hit in clear VFR. Â As a result I became an early adopter of the XM weather system. To this day I don't know why my aircraft wasn't turned into a burn't potato crisp. Just lucky I guess.



To be honest it's picking up ice on the Europa's laminar flow Â wing that scares me. Â I recall one occasion when I was flying to my home base in my Comanche enjoying the clear blue at 3500' and had to do a very modest ILS down to 1200 ~ 1500'. I doubt if the cloud layer was 2000' thick and I picked up so much ice that the wings looked like the inside of a freezer and I couldn't see out of the wind screen. I had to land it by looking out the side window. Â This stuff wasn't in the forecast and I know that it wouldn't have had a happy ending in my Europa.

I do stand by my comment that it isn't a great instrument platform. Â IMHO there are two aspects to this, unless the conditions are particularly benign then you do find yourself being "bounced" around and off the glide slope fairly easily. Â The other aspect is that once you are configured for landing you are flying slowly so you spend much more time on the approach, hence the opportunity to drift off is greaterÂ 

With that said, I need to add some context. The heaviest aircraft I have flown in IMC and on an approach is a CASA which weighs 20x what my Euorpa weighs and has much higher approach speed. These types of aircraft are much easier to fly approaches in.



I agree with Jon that certifying a Europa for instrument conditions isn't much different than C150's and I doubt if we will see a bunch of Europa's doing CFIT or falling out of the sky on an approach.Â With that said, it all comes down to our risk profile, if we don't plan on poking around in "bad stuff" and running down ILS minimums then life is good. Â  As someone else commented, its a better situation that scud running in marginal conditions.



I think its great to see the authorities in the UK Â being open to change.

Cheers, Paul

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:20 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

[quote]



Brian

One Europa had a lightning strike which took out most of the electronics and the lights.

It happened many miles from the nearest cloud if I remember correctly. 

Graham

[b]

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