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Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing

 
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LarryRosen



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

After a very long break, I have started working on building my RV10
again. I am working on fixing some of the things I don't like about how
that came out. One is how the rear heat scat tube is routed around my
fuel valve and over the wing spar.

I have two possible solutions.
One is to reduce to a 1 or 1-1/2" tube. Those that fly in the cold
north, do you think you would still get enough heat to the back
passengers with a 1" tube?

The second is to construct a fiberglass duct to route around the problem
areas. Is the hot air from the heater valve hot enough to cause
problems with a duct constructed of glass and west epoxy?

Larry
RV10 #40356


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Larry
The heat is plenty hot that when we use it it has been about 1-10th of open, so smaller tubing would work fine
I have a Fiberglass plenum over my engine and there is no issue, so I can not imagine it would be an issue. I used Aeropoxy slow cure and that is rated for hotter temps, sure west marine has a higher temp resin as well.
Best of success

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com> wrote:



After a very long break, I have started working on building my RV10 again. I am working on fixing some of the things I don't like about how that came out. One is how the rear heat scat tube is routed around my fuel valve and over the wing spar.

I have two possible solutions.
One is to reduce to a 1 or 1-1/2" tube. Those that fly in the cold north, do you think you would still get enough heat to the back passengers with a 1" tube?

The second is to construct a fiberglass duct to route around the problem areas. Is the hot air from the heater valve hot enough to cause problems with a duct constructed of glass and west epoxy?

Larry
RV10 #40356






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johngoodman



Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Larry,
I used a 1.75 inch scat tube from Aircraft Spruce - it works fine.
John


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:27 am    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Larry,

I used a 1.5" hose from the fire wall to the rear connector, with homebrew
reducers at each end to make the transition between 2" and 1.5". I did this
as it made routing the hose much easier.

Assuming you are doing the stock Vetterman exhaust there is an amazing
amount of heat available for the cabin. Considering this, I installed a
3/4" diameter restrictor in the rear baffle heat muff hose connectors to
reduce the amount of air going to the heat muff. As I would never use that
much heat, I figured that the other 90% of flying where the heat is off I'd
rather have that air cooling the engine instead of bypassing it. Now on the
coldest days I have the rear heat half open and the front heat cracked open
or shut.

One other point - I view the per plans cabin heat valve location as
problematic. On the hottest day you have hot air off the heat muffs being
directed back at the engine - right at the mechanical fuel pump. My fix for
this was to install a piece of Koolmat between the firewall cabin heat boxes
(holes cut out for the box air exit) such that the mat extends over the top
of the boxes and then down over the front of the boxes. The result is when
the cabin heat valves are shut, the dumped hot air is directed down toward
the bottom of the cowl, and the conductive heat from the boxes to the
firewall is reduced. This is the Koolmat product:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php?clickkey=261602

I'm happy with how it all worked out.
Carl

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LarryRosen



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Quote:

I used a 1.5" hose from the fire wall to the rear connector, with homebrew
reducers at each end to make the transition between 2" and 1.5". I did this
as it made routing the hose much easier.
It sounds like 1" tubing would provide more than enough heat.


I may homebrew or just use these reducers from planeinovations
<http://www.planeinnovations.com/scat-adapters.html> It will depend if I
want to spend time or money.

Quote:
One other point - I view the per plans cabin heat valve location as
problematic. On the hottest day you have hot air off the heat muffs being
directed back at the engine - right at the mechanical fuel pump. My fix for
this was to install a piece of Koolmat between the firewall cabin heat boxes
(holes cut out for the box air exit) such that the mat extends over the top
of the boxes and then down over the front of the boxes. The result is when
the cabin heat valves are shut, the dumped hot air is directed down toward
the bottom of the cowl, and the conductive heat from the boxes to the
firewall is reduced. This is the Koolmat product:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php?clickkey=261602

I am having a hard time visualizing what you installed. Are you using

the koolmat to direct the hot air down instead of towards the engine.
In this case the koolmat is working as a plenum and not insulating the fwf.

Larry


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

I visualize this as the cool mat being in an inverted U shape. One side against the firewall for insulation; the other hanging down a few inches from the firewall to direct the hot air down.

I did half this: put silicon baffle material under the box to insulate it from the firewall.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Larry,

I looked for a photo but only found one when the fuselage was upside down
(attached). So if you can visualize, the flap that is hanging down would
hang over the top of the boxes and scat hoses when upright. You can see the
round notches cut to lay over the scat hoses. The result is the dumped hot
air from the cabin heat boxes is directed down toward the cowl exhaust area.

Carl
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Deems Davis



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

http://deemsrv10.com/album/Final%20Assembly/slides/DSC06932.html
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
[quote]Larry,

I looked for a photo but only found one when the fuselage was upside down
(attached).  So if you can visualize, the flap that is hanging down would
hang over the top of the boxes and scat hoses when upright.  You can see the
round notches cut to lay over the scat hoses.  The result is the dumped hot
air from the cabin heat boxes is directed down toward the cowl exhaust area.

Carl


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Deems Davis



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

http://deemsrv10.com/album/Final%20Assembly/slides/DSC07074.html
click forward for a few more pics
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)>


Quote:

I used a 1.5" hose from the fire wall to the rear connector, with homebrew
reducers at each end to make the transition between 2" and 1.5".  I did this
as it made routing the hose much easier.
It sounds like 1" tubing would provide more than enough heat.

I may homebrew or just use these reducers from planeinovations  <http://www.planeinnovations.com/scat-adapters.html> It will depend if I want to spend time or money.

Quote:
One other point - I view the per plans cabin heat valve location as
problematic.  On the hottest day you have hot air off the heat muffs being
directed back at the engine - right at the mechanical fuel pump.  My fix for
this was to install a piece of Koolmat between the firewall cabin heat boxes
(holes cut out for the box air exit) such that the mat extends over the top
of the boxes and then down over the front of the boxes.  The result is when
the cabin heat valves are shut, the dumped hot air is directed down toward
the bottom of the cowl, and the conductive heat from the boxes to the
firewall is reduced.  This is the Koolmat product:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php?clickkey=261602

I am having a hard time visualizing what you installed.  Are you using the koolmat to direct the hot air down instead of towards the engine.  In this case the koolmat is working as a plenum and not insulating the fwf.

Larry

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LarryRosen



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:40 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Deems,
1" Scat tubing?
I take it, no issues with the fiberglass in the heater line.

Larry

On 3/24/2015 4:18 PM, Deems Davis wrote:

[quote] http://deemsrv10.com/album/Final%20Assembly/slides/DSC07074.html


click forward for a few more pics


On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)>


Quote:

I used a 1.5" hose from the fire wall to the rear connector, with homebrew
reducers at each end to make the transition between 2" and 1.5".  I did this
as it made routing the hose much easier.
It sounds like 1" tubing would provide more than enough heat.

I may homebrew or just use these reducers from planeinovations  <http://www.planeinnovations.com/scat-adapters.html> It will depend if I want to spend time or money.

Quote:
One other point - I view the per plans cabin heat valve location as
problematic.  On the hottest day you have hot air off the heat muffs being
directed back at the engine - right at the mechanical fuel pump.  My fix for
this was to install a piece of Koolmat between the firewall cabin heat boxes
(holes cut out for the box air exit) such that the mat extends over the top
of the boxes and then down over the front of the boxes.  The result is when
the cabin heat valves are shut, the dumped hot air is directed down toward
the bottom of the cowl, and the conductive heat from the boxes to the
firewall is reduced.  This is the Koolmat product:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php?clickkey=261602

I am having a hard time visualizing what you installed.  Are you using the koolmat to direct the hot air down instead of towards the engine.  In this case the koolmat is working as a plenum and not insulating the fwf.

Larry

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

My first 2”-1.5” scat reducer was made of fiberglass.  The first time I turned on the rear heat it did off gas.  I replaced it with one made of aluminum.

Carl

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 5:37 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing

Deems,
1" Scat tubing?
I take it, no issues with the fiberglass in the heater line.

Larry

On 3/24/2015 4:18 PM, Deems Davis wrote:
Quote:

http://deemsrv10.com/album/Final%20Assembly/slides/DSC07074.html


click forward for a few more pics

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)>

I used a 1.5" hose from the fire wall to the rear connector, with homebrew
reducers at each end to make the transition between 2" and 1.5". I did this
as it made routing the hose much easier.
It sounds like 1" tubing would provide more than enough heat.

I may homebrew or just use these reducers from planeinovations <http://www.planeinnovations.com/scat-adapters.html> It will depend if I want to spend time or money.
One other point - I view the per plans cabin heat valve location as
problematic. On the hottest day you have hot air off the heat muffs being
directed back at the engine - right at the mechanical fuel pump. My fix for
this was to install a piece of Koolmat between the firewall cabin heat boxes
(holes cut out for the box air exit) such that the mat extends over the top
of the boxes and then down over the front of the boxes. The result is when
the cabin heat valves are shut, the dumped hot air is directed down toward
the bottom of the cowl, and the conductive heat from the boxes to the
firewall is reduced. This is the Koolmat product:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php?clickkey=261602
I am having a hard time visualizing what you installed. Are you using the koolmat to direct the hot air down instead of towards the engine. In this case the koolmat is working as a plenum and not insulating the fwf.

Larry

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Quote:

Quote:
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Deems Davis



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

The 1" was something I had lying around the hangar. No issues with the fiberglass and the heat.I made the reducers by carving some styrofoam and wraping it with duct/mylar tape and then glassing over it.

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Deems,
1" Scat tubing?
I take it, no issues with the fiberglass in the heater line.

Larry

On 3/24/2015 4:18 PM, Deems Davis wrote:

Quote:
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Final%20Assembly/slides/DSC07074.html


click forward for a few more pics


On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <n205en(at)gmail.com (n205en(at)gmail.com)>


Quote:

I used a 1.5" hose from the fire wall to the rear connector, with homebrew
reducers at each end to make the transition between 2" and 1.5".  I did this
as it made routing the hose much easier.
It sounds like 1" tubing would provide more than enough heat.

I may homebrew or just use these reducers from planeinovations  <http://www.planeinnovations.com/scat-adapters.html> It will depend if I want to spend time or money.

Quote:
One other point - I view the per plans cabin heat valve location as
problematic.  On the hottest day you have hot air off the heat muffs being
directed back at the engine - right at the mechanical fuel pump.  My fix for
this was to install a piece of Koolmat between the firewall cabin heat boxes
(holes cut out for the box air exit) such that the mat extends over the top
of the boxes and then down over the front of the boxes.  The result is when
the cabin heat valves are shut, the dumped hot air is directed down toward
the bottom of the cowl, and the conductive heat from the boxes to the
firewall is reduced.  This is the Koolmat product:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/koolmat.php?clickkey=261602

I am having a hard time visualizing what you installed.  Are you using the koolmat to direct the hot air down instead of towards the engine.  In this case the koolmat is working as a plenum and not insulating the fwf.

Larry

====================================
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AirMike



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing - other issues Reply with quote

I just followed the standard plans and crushed the large scat tube to fit the space. After 5 years no problems with chafe or perforation. It is ugly, but it works. Deems' installation is obviously 1st class, but a bit of extra work.

I would say two far more important issues are : 1) the cheap aluminum air distribution boxes on the firewall supplied by Vans. I suggest using only the excellent (after market) fire resistant stainless steel steel boxes. Could save your life. 2) Also, if I were building again, I would improvise easier access to the fuel system (in the tunnel) - pump and filter - for easy servicing. Servicing the fuel filter is a real pain. Top and side access portals would facilitate servicing.


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dmaib@me.com



Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing - other issues Reply with quote

AirMike wrote:
I just followed the standard plans and crushed the large scat tube to fit the space. After 5 years no problems with chafe or perforation. It is ugly, but it works. Deems' installation is obviously 1st class, but a bit of extra work.

I would say two far more important issues are : 1) the cheap aluminum air distribution boxes on the firewall supplied by Vans. I suggest using only the excellent (after market) fire resistant stainless steel steel boxes. Could save your life. 2) Also, if I were building again, I would improvise easier access to the fuel system (in the tunnel) - pump and filter - for easy servicing. Servicing the fuel filter is a real pain. Top and side access portals would facilitate servicing.


I did the same thing with the large scat and it works fine. Coming up on 7 years with no issues, but as Mike says, it is ugly. However, I am the only one that looks at it! ^_^
I agree with Mike's comments about the aluminum heat distribution box and tunnel access. I even thought about making a belly access panel, ala Piper, but that would introduce some other engineering issues I imagine. You will thank yourself later on if you make access to the fuel filter as easy as possible.


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kearney



Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing - other issues:Fuel Filter Reply with quote

Hi

Agree with David's comment on the fuel filters. One of the "legacy" items from my earlier filters install was placement of fuel filters in the wing roots. I was able to install two Earl's Performance filters - one in each wing root. They are user serviceable and easily accessed simply by removing the wing root cover panel. Now I don't have to contort myself to get at them as I would if they were in the tunnel.

Regular cleaning, especially when first flying, is a must. There can be a lot of accumulated crud when building.

I also installed an access panel on the pilot's side wall of the tunnel for easy access to the aux fuel pump.

Cheer

Les
easily(at)me.com wrote:
AirMike wrote:
I just followed the standard plans and crushed the large scat tube to fit the space. After 5 years no problems with chafe or perforation. It is ugly, but it works. Deems' installation is obviously 1st class, but a bit of extra work.

I would say two far more important issues are : 1) the cheap aluminum air distribution boxes on the firewall supplied by Vans. I suggest using only the excellent (after market) fire resistant stainless steel steel boxes. Could save your life. 2) Also, if I were building again, I would improvise easier access to the fuel system (in the tunnel) - pump and filter - for easy servicing. Servicing the fuel filter is a real pain. Top and side access portals would facilitate servicing.


I did the same thing with the large scat and it works fine. Coming up on 7 years with no issues, but as Mike says, it is ugly. However, I am the only one that looks at it! ^_^
I agree with Mike's comments about the aluminum heat distribution box and tunnel access. I even thought about making a belly access panel, ala Piper, but that would introduce some other engineering issues I imagine. You will thank yourself later on if you make access to the fuel filter as easy as possible.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Any pictures of the wing root filter installations please Les?

Warm regards

Patrick

Quote:
On 25 Mar 2015, at 23:40, kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



Hi

Agree with David's comment on the fuel filters. One of the "legacy" items from my earlier filters install was placement of fuel filters in the wing roots. I was able to install two Earl's Performance filters - one in each wing root. They are user serviceable and easily accessed simply by removing the wing root cover panel. Now I don't have to contort myself to get at them as I would if they were in the tunnel.

Regular cleaning, especially when first flying, is a must. There can be a lot of accumulated crud when building.

I also installed an access panel on the pilot's side wall of the tunnel for easy access to the aux fuel pump.

Cheer

Les



easily(at)me.com wrote:
>
> AirMike wrote:
>> I just followed the standard plans and crushed the large scat tube to fit the space. After 5 years no problems with chafe or perforation. It is ugly, but it works. Deems' installation is obviously 1st class, but a bit of extra work.
>>
>> I would say two far more important issues are : 1) the cheap aluminum air distribution boxes on the firewall supplied by Vans. I suggest using only the excellent (after market) fire resistant stainless steel steel boxes. Could save your life. 2) Also, if I were building again, I would improvise easier access to the fuel system (in the tunnel) - pump and filter - for easy servicing. Servicing the fuel filter is a real pain. Top and side access portals would facilitate servicing.
>
>
> I did the same thing with the large scat and it works fine. Coming up on 7 years with no issues, but as Mike says, it is ugly. However, I am the only one that looks at it! ^_^
> I agree with Mike's comments about the aluminum heat distribution box and tunnel access. I even thought about making a belly access panel, ala Piper, but that would introduce some other engineering issues I imagine. You will thank yourself later on if you make access to the fuel filter as easy as possible.





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LarryRosen



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Rear Heat SCAT Tube Routing Reply with quote

Attached is a photo of my SCAT tube solution. I made a fiberglass tube
to go around the Andair fuel valve stem. The tube is held in place by 2
pipe clamps that are riveted to the tunnel.

Larry


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