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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
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 Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:55 pm Post subject: Hello World |
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Glenn,
Pleased to hear you found these courses useful, it is re-teaching what those of us are old enough to remember was normal engine operating knowledge in the WW II through to the early ‘60’s.
You should try and find a manufacturer’s handbook for the engine, published back then, it may have the LOP info. It will certainly have rpm/boost curves that will be helpful, but are probably not in the AFM in as much detail.
I have the greatest of respect for John Deakin and his efforts.
Re. Octane, this is the determinant of the “knock rating” of the fuel, and TEL indeed increases the octane rating. Interestingly, many of the base fuels now available to produce avgas have a higher “natural” octane rating, and need less TEL (or other additives) to produce the ASTM specification octane, whether it is “research” or “motor” octane.
A long time ago, now, back in my days as a university student, part of the engineering course was playing with a single cylinder test engine, with variable compression ratio, to determine the actual octane of a fuel sample, and playing around with additives, including varying TEL, and testing the results. Also, of course, testing with various fuel/air ratios.
One thing we found was that oil companies were a bit naughty about advertised octane ratings for auto gas, the numbers had more to do with what the opposition were claiming in advertising than the test results we derived from a suitably calibrated test engine.
RE. valve seats, despite much recent correspondence on web sites, years ago TEL also played a part in valve seat life, particularly exhaust valves, and from the (I would guess) early ‘70s, there were major changes to valve seat material and valves in autos.
Lead as lead naphthalate was also a common high pressure lubricant additive, for things like diffs. The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially lead naphthalate.
Interestingly, the loss of low octane aviation fuels and the widespread use of TEL created a problem with many old engines, if they had bronze cylinder heads, the TEL wrecked them very quickly.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:24 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Hello World
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. 
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au (wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au)> wrote:
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican’s Perch web site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running LOP.
“100LL” is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cylinders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right stuff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was available.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel control support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly 🌐
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM (glennh(at)GMAIL.COM)>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net (rcdettmer(at)charter.net)> wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses below.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01D0B7EA.1C8C6E60[/img]
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
[url=tel:805%20541%204864]805 541 4864[/url] / fax [url=tel:805%20541%204865]805 541 4865[/url]
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don’t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks – main tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power – 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try..
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard <Richard(at)flycorp.com.au (Richard(at)flycorp.com.au)> wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com (Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com)> wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
To: Commander list
Subject: Re: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com (tylorhall(at)mac.com)
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
[url=tel:505-400-8373]505-400-8373[/url] Cell
[url=tel:505-247-3001]505-247-3001[/url]
www.firstfueling.com
01
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
234567
890123
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
456789
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: Hello World |
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Folks,
As a minor point (this might sound a bit the “ the full anorak”) but this engine was also used in the Piaggio P-166C, as well as the Queenair 85. I have flown the engine in both the Queenair 85 and the “big Pig” as well as the 680FL.
I can’t agree more about the engine handling recommendations. Get the original manufacturer’s engine manual.
Fundamentally, if I can see your hand moving, you are opening or closing the throttle too fast.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 8:48 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Hello World
| Quote: |
Greetings Wing Commander Gordon.
I agree with all you have said.
|
Thanks, Mate!
After the past 17 years exclusively in Falcon Jets, I've lost a lot of the knowledge I had, living in and with Commanders since 1978.
Once in a while some of the ideas come back to me, I share it, and then worry if I've just broadcast a bunch of dung.
Best,
"Wing Commander Gordon"
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
--
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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: Hello World |
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| Quote: | | The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially lead naphthalate. |
I've waited 50 years to find out what Bardahl was. Thank you, Bill Hamilton!
~KG~
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Chairman
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
--
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glennh(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:31 am Post subject: Hello World |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:18 am Post subject: Hello World |
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Good Morning Mister Kieth.S. Gordon
You wrote:
"Gentlemen,
This is a well worn trail.
To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is.
My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations.
When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance.
He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put in production in the early 1950s.
There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than fuel cost, between ROP and LOP.
The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection at the super charger.
It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander 680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the market challenge of the 680F series.)
I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ...
One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines to the IGSO-540:
On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down.
If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb power if needed.
The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side at all times.
That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a Duchess last week.
K.S.Gordon"
Those words are obviously written from experience.
Wonderful data. My limited experience with the engine in question was during the late 1950's.
I have never experienced the valve guide problem you mention. No doubt it DID happen though my feeling is that further investigation would find that the leaded fuel was not the needed fix!
Had to be something else. <G>
However, all of your operating techniques work great for everything from a Continental 65 in a J-3 Cub to a Turbo Compound Wright 3350 in a Douglas DC-7. Wish I had written them myself!
We still teach way too many old wives tales based on bad, though effective, WWII expediency training.
Thank You!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
(Active Flight instructor since 1949)
[quote][b]
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