Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Rick Moss



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.

What do you chaps tend to do?

XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:55 pm    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Quote:
From Sleap i use 20deg less drag in case of engine failure. Maybe better glide choice of landing area???
Dave


Sent from my iPhone
Quote:
On 31 Jul 2015, at 17:53, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:



It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.

What do you chaps tend to do?

XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445452#445452












- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Burrilla



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:08 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

I use 20 dog and maintain little back pressure to keep nose light. Lifts off smooth. Haven't found much advantage in using full flap.

Alan

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On 1 Aug 2015, at 08:54, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:



> From Sleap i use 20deg less drag in case of engine failure. Maybe better glide choice of landing area???
Dave

Sent from my iPhone


> On 31 Jul 2015, at 17:53, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.
>
> What do you chaps tend to do?
>
> XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445452#445452







- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Remi Guerner



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

I consider the compulsory 27 degree flap setting of the monowheel to be a big inconvenience on take off. The aircraft levitates at low speed close to the ground before having enough speed to start the climb and allowing the flaps/gear to be retracted. During those few seconds, the aircraft is very sensitive to wind gusts, especially in a crosswind and that is a potentially dangerous situation. I would love to be able to take off with 5 or 10 degrees of flaps. But I would not exchange my speedy monowheel for a trigear.
Remi Guerner


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:37 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Amen to that. Although the mono gets off the ground very nicely it will not climb well nor gather speed very well until you have the flaps up, so in practice I level off 10ft or so off the ground to gain enough speed to pull the gear & flaps up before climbing. None of that is ideal and could be a serious issue in some circumstances so I certainly wouldn't think it a good idea for trikes to take off with any more flap than they can climb comfortably with to the sort of height where you can afford to take your eye off the main business of flying in order to deal with reducing flap.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ, mono 914.

On 2015-08-01 12:26, Remi Guerner wrote: [quote]
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

I consider the compulsory 27 degree flap setting of the monowheel to be a big inconvenience on take off. The aircraft levitates at low speed close to the ground before having enough speed to start the climb and allowing the flaps/gear to be retracted. During those few seconds, the aircraft is very sensitive to wind gusts, especially in a crosswind and that is a potentially dangerous situation. I would love to be able to take off with 5 or 10 degrees of flaps. But I would not exchange my speedy monowheel for a trigear.
Remi Guerner


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445471#445471

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
.matronics.com/contribution

[b]


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:58 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Remi’s post below begs the question as to why short-wing-mono builders have not decoupled flaps from the LG by using the electric flap mechanism of the trigger…?...or made the modification after recognizing the condition he describes.
Or am I unconsciously looking for a rationale to further delay that first flight?

Fred

PS: BTW, here is the latest speedod for the mono, Smile)

[img]cid:F9637C06-5BE9-4AB0-A0D3-458EC4660638(at)Home[/img]
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2015, at 4:26 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)> wrote:
I consider the compulsory 27 degree flap setting of the monowheel to be a big inconvenience on take off. The aircraft levitates at low speed close to the ground before having enough speed to start the climb and allowing the flaps/gear to be retracted. During those few seconds, the aircraft is very sensitive to wind gusts, especially in a crosswind and that is a potentially dangerous situation. I would love to be able to take off with 5 or 10 degrees of flaps. But I would not exchange my speedy monowheel for a trigear.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



DSCN8282.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  19.71 KB
 Viewed:  10087 Time(s)

DSCN8282.jpeg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:15 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

I was type converted by Andy Draper who was chief pilot at Europa before he joined theLAA engineering dept.

I taught me and demoed take of in a tri gear at 18 degrees, he did at the time remark that it is laa mono possible to climb out at full flap, but there must be a reason for the 18 degrees? It works well for me fwiw

I must remark that a couple of hours flying with Andy is so enlightening......

David Joyce
The other one

Sent from the iPad of David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com

Quote:
On 1 Aug 2015, at 08:54, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:



> From Sleap i use 20deg less drag in case of engine failure. Maybe better glide choice of landing area???
Dave

Sent from my iPhone


> On 31 Jul 2015, at 17:53, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.
>
> What do you chaps tend to do?
>
> XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445452#445452
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:07 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote



- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:49 pm    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote



- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:20 pm    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Remi
No reason why you couldn't fit the electric flap drive of the tri gear is there?
Graham


On Saturday, 1 August 2015, 22:50, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:










[quote][b]


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
europa471



Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Graham

Surely the Justin Kennedy/Ted Gladstone design has the LAA blessing?

That is what I have modelled mine on.

Regards

Lance Sandford in OZ

On 02/08/15 08:16, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

[quote] Remi
No reason why you couldn't fit the electric flap drive of the tri gear is there?
Graham






On Saturday, 1 August 2015, 22:50, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:












Quote:

[b]


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Hi all,
This is a question that can only be answered by a careful,
thoughtful test program. No one offs, please.

In old flapped Pipers, it is a common trick to suddenly pull
flaps to half or full when nearing Vr. One jumps off the ground
with little deceleration. It is a cowboy stunt. A moment of
wind shift or inattention and you are back on the ground - hard.

In a trigear like mine, this is a useless
thought since the flap motor is so slow.
Down here in Georgia where my field
is often at 3,000 - 3,500 density and 2400
in length, I usually use 5-10 of flaps but it is hard to see much difference.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
Ira N224XS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richard.holder(at)outlook
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

On 08/08/2015 01:43, rampil wrote:

Quote:
In a trigear like mine, this is a useless
thought since the flap motor is so slow.
Down here in Georgia where my field
is often at 3,000 - 3,500 density and 2400
in length, I usually use 5-10 of flaps but it is hard to see much difference.

Are you saying you use 5-10 of flaps for take-off ?

Mine stays on the ground for ages if I forget (!) to put
the flaps down !

I use 15 degrees on tarmac and 19 on grass.

With a 10 knot headwind I am off in 250 yards on tarmac
and 350 yards on grass (if it isn't too bumpy which messes
up the aerodynamics), Density altitude is normally about
300 feet though.

HTH

Richard Holder
G-OWWW
Europa Tri-Gear


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Hi Richard,

Yes.

When I was based at latitude 41N and had a 4500 concrete runway at
sea level, I never used flaps for T/O. Never had a performance issue, but I
will admit to not carefully collecting flight test data on take off run. Sadly,
my BlueMountain data logging feature was discontinued in my G4 making
new collection more onerous.

At latitude 33 where the average temp feels 20°F warmer, more humid,
and starting at 900' AGL, my habit is to use a small amount of flap on
my grass strip. Recall that with our flaps, lift increases in the early part
of travel and less in the late travel whereas drag increases mostly in the
late travel. Without flight test and therefore only my opinion/experience
5 - 10° of flaps increases lift (and minimally at t/o speed, induced drag)
and minimally increases form drag. Perhaps at half flap the lift is maxed
out without too much extra drag, I would think at 19° you are getting
more drag without much more lift. My strip is far too rough to take careful
measurements, but perhaps Europa could try a wee bit of CFD since they
have the form data and the software.

Cheers,


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
Ira N224XS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:06 am    Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Hi Ira,

In the more regulated UK world I suspect Europa did quite a bit of flight
testing to arrive at the take off flap setting of 18 deg. quoted in the
section 5 of their Owners Manual. Regarding CFD I know that the current
Europa (Swift) had a bit of trouble getting the Europa form into their
computer as some of it was originally designed and built using Nigel
Graham's CAD system ( Cardboard Aided Design).

Regards

Brian Davies

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:17 am    Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear) Reply with quote

Hi Brian,

Interesting!

The reason I suggested CFD was that I had been told that one of the
first things David did on acquiring Europa was to obtain a high res 3D
laser scan model for CFD (and manufacturing).

As for my use of less flaps, that was based on my initial 40 hr flight
test program at KZPH in 2004. ZPH has long paved runways near SL.
Acceleration to 50 kt was faster with minimal flaps selected than half flaps.
This may have been impacted by my C.G. being rather forward and, having
just moved my main battery to the rear fuselage, I will reexamine the issue.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
Ira N224XS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group