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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:29 am Post subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage |
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Cursing at it wont help Galin. I suspect the cause of the separation is from the enormous stresses the engine weight from landings is on that area. Seems to be in line with the top bolts of the engine mount. The only thing you can do is beef up the layers of glass in the area aft of the firewall inside the fuselage and spread them out farther than originally. Then do cosmetics on the outside. Of course something entirely different could be at work but I don't see what.
Al Rosa
Al
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I have noticed a possible issue with the fuselage but am not sure if it something that grounds the airplane.
On the forward sides of the fuselage about 5" behind the firewall the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined. Picture #1 shows where the fiberglass seems to be separating in relation to the left side of the airframe. Picture #2 is a closer view showing the "separation" which starts about 4-5" behind the firewall. Picture #3 shows a close up of the "separation" which is about 5" in length. I have noticed it is growing but away from the firewall. The left side is significantly more pronounced than the right side. The airframe has 1,100hrs on it.
Opinions and possible curses of action?
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:21 pm Post subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage |
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The separation is way below where the top bolts are. It is more like 1/2 way between where the top and bottom bolts are.
It looks like the top and bottom parts of the fuselage are separating right about where they are bonded together but only in this one area. The right side started separating at nearly the same spot but has stopped.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com (fredorosa(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Cursing at it wont help Galin. I suspect the cause of the separation is from the enormous stresses the engine weight from landings is on that area. Seems to be in line with the top bolts of the engine mount. The only thing you can do is beef up the layers of glass in the area aft of the firewall inside the fuselage and spread them out farther than originally. Then do cosmetics on the outside. Of course something entirely different could be at work but I don't see what.
Al Rosa
Al
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I have noticed a possible issue with the fuselage but am not sure if it something that grounds the airplane.
On the forward sides of the fuselage about 5" behind the firewall the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined. Picture #1 shows where the fiberglass seems to be separating in relation to the left side of the airframe. Picture #2 is a closer view showing the "separation" which starts about 4-5" behind the firewall. Picture #3 shows a close up of the "separation" which is about 5" in length. I have noticed it is growing but away from the firewall. The left side is significantly more pronounced than the right side. The airframe has 1,100hrs on it.
Opinions and possible curses of action?
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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Dptate49(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage |
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Any lateral forces from inside the cockpit such as instrument panel, pedals or bulkheads?
Dave Tate
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 28, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | A better look at the separation.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The separation is way below where the top bolts are. It is more like 1/2 way between where the top and bottom bolts are.
It looks like the top and bottom parts of the fuselage are separating right about where they are bonded together but only in this one area. The right side started separating at nearly the same spot but has stopped.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com (fredorosa(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Cursing at it wont help Galin. I suspect the cause of the separation is from the enormous stresses the engine weight from landings is on that area. Seems to be in line with the top bolts of the engine mount. The only thing you can do is beef up the layers of glass in the area aft of the firewall inside the fuselage and spread them out farther than originally. Then do cosmetics on the outside. Of course something entirely different could be at work but I don't see what.
Al Rosa
Al
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I have noticed a possible issue with the fuselage but am not sure if it something that grounds the airplane.
On the forward sides of the fuselage about 5" behind the firewall the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined. Picture #1 shows where the fiberglass seems to be separating in relation to the left side of the airframe. Picture #2 is a closer view showing the "separation" which starts about 4-5" behind the firewall. Picture #3 shows a close up of the "separation" which is about 5" in length. I have noticed it is growing but away from the firewall. The left side is significantly more pronounced than the right side. The airframe has 1,100hrs on it.
Opinions and possible curses of action?
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<Slide1.JPG>
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage |
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7/28/2016
Hello Galin, You wrote:
1) “..... possible curses of action?”
Yes, some curses are certainly in order.
2) “..... the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined.”
a) My thinking is that it is the fuselage top separating from the fuselage bottom in those areas because of failure of the adhesive used in the seam / joggle area where the fuselage top overlaps the fuselage bottom. You can probably confirm this by looking inside the fuselage to determine the location relationship between the outside separation and the visible seam inside. Remember, there is an overlap so that the outside visible separation (which would be even with the bottom edge of the fuselage top) will be a bit below the top edge of the fuselage bottom.**
b) You can get further confirmation of the seam separation described above by tapping with a coin moving horizontally to the left and right of that separation area. Away from the separation area the sound will be fairly solid when you tap. In the separated area there will be more of a hollow sound with the coin tap.
c) The bad news is that if there is such a seam separation it will only grow with more flights so the prudent thing is to not fly the airplane until you have performed some sort of repair.
d) How to repair?? That is the $64,000 question. Al Rosa wrote: “........ beef up the layers of glass in the area aft of the firewall inside the fuselage and spread them out farther than originally.”
That seems like a reasonable approach to me if you feel that you can get access to the entire width of that seam area plus a little wider. Also the aft end of the additional layers that you add should be tapered off so that there is not an abrupt transition from the reinforced area to the existing seam structure. This is to avoid stress concentration.
Please keep us informed.
OC
**PS: There is a rather sad tale regarding the amount of overlap / joggle / seam area between the top and bottom of the fuselage pieces.
There was a fairly large overlap width area for the KIS TR-1 fuselage. (I don’t recall the number right now.) When the four place fuselage was developed it was decided that the overlap did not need to be that wide. Unfortunately there was a communication breakdown at the factory and when the fuselage top for my #116 KIS TR-1 was made (and maybe some other kits also) it was given the narrower overlap area of the four place top. When I tried to dry fit the top of my fuselage to the bottom the lack of complete overlap was readily apparent.
When I told this to Rich he knew immediately what I was talking about (maybe I was not the first one to call him). His solution was to make and ship a new fuselage top to me and have me ship the original one back to him. I don’t know what he did, or could do, with the defective original fuselage top. He paid for both making the new top and the two way shipping and I suspect that ate up any profit gained from my purchase.
===============================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 1:19 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage
I have noticed a possible issue with the fuselage but am not sure if it something that grounds the airplane.
On the forward sides of the fuselage about 5" behind the firewall the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined. Picture #1 shows where the fiberglass seems to be separating in relation to the left side of the airframe. Picture #2 is a closer view showing the "separation" which starts about 4-5" behind the firewall. Picture #3 shows a close up of the "separation" which is about 5" in length. I have noticed it is growing but away from the firewall. The left side is significantly more pronounced than the right side. The airframe has 1,100hrs on it.
Opinions and possible curses of action?
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage |
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The "curses" was a typo (it should read courses) but it is very appropriate. CURSES, foiled again!
I will have to squeeze myself into the front part of the cockpit to see if the separation is along the "seam". If this is the issue then I get to do (sarcasm) some reinforcing work. Not something I am looking forward to do in the 1,000 degree (at least it feels that hot) Florida summer heat. 
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 7/28/2016
Hello Galin, You wrote:
1) “..... possible curses of action?”
Yes, some curses are certainly in order.
2) “..... the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined.”
a) My thinking is that it is the fuselage top separating from the fuselage bottom in those areas because of failure of the adhesive used in the seam / joggle area where the fuselage top overlaps the fuselage bottom. You can probably confirm this by looking inside the fuselage to determine the location relationship between the outside separation and the visible seam inside. Remember, there is an overlap so that the outside visible separation (which would be even with the bottom edge of the fuselage top) will be a bit below the top edge of the fuselage bottom.**
b) You can get further confirmation of the seam separation described above by tapping with a coin moving horizontally to the left and right of that separation area. Away from the separation area the sound will be fairly solid when you tap. In the separated area there will be more of a hollow sound with the coin tap.
c) The bad news is that if there is such a seam separation it will only grow with more flights so the prudent thing is to not fly the airplane until you have performed some sort of repair.
d) How to repair?? That is the $64,000 question. Al Rosa wrote: “........ beef up the layers of glass in the area aft of the firewall inside the fuselage and spread them out farther than originally.”
That seems like a reasonable approach to me if you feel that you can get access to the entire width of that seam area plus a little wider. Also the aft end of the additional layers that you add should be tapered off so that there is not an abrupt transition from the reinforced area to the existing seam structure. This is to avoid stress concentration.
Please keep us informed.
OC
**PS: There is a rather sad tale regarding the amount of overlap / joggle / seam area between the top and bottom of the fuselage pieces.
There was a fairly large overlap width area for the KIS TR-1 fuselage. (I don’t recall the number right now.) When the four place fuselage was developed it was decided that the overlap did not need to be that wide. Unfortunately there was a communication breakdown at the factory and when the fuselage top for my #116 KIS TR-1 was made (and maybe some other kits also) it was given the narrower overlap area of the four place top. When I tried to dry fit the top of my fuselage to the bottom the lack of complete overlap was readily apparent.
When I told this to Rich he knew immediately what I was talking about (maybe I was not the first one to call him). His solution was to make and ship a new fuselage top to me and have me ship the original one back to him. I don’t know what he did, or could do, with the defective original fuselage top. He paid for both making the new top and the two way shipping and I suspect that ate up any profit gained from my purchase.
===============================================
From: Galin Hernandez (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 1:19 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Possible Issue on KIS4 Fuselage
I have noticed a possible issue with the fuselage but am not sure if it something that grounds the airplane.
On the forward sides of the fuselage about 5" behind the firewall the two sides seem to be separating right where they are joined. Picture #1 shows where the fiberglass seems to be separating in relation to the left side of the airframe. Picture #2 is a closer view showing the "separation" which starts about 4-5" behind the firewall. Picture #3 shows a close up of the "separation" which is about 5" in length. I have noticed it is growing but away from the firewall. The left side is significantly more pronounced than the right side. The airframe has 1,100hrs on it.
Opinions and possible curses of action?
|
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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