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the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread

 
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jhstarn(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

Since I've flown in the back seat of an RV-4 with & without heel cups and
the HRII with them. (6-0 240#) I think I'm in a position to talk. The -4 W/O
puts you knees in a very drawn up & uncomfortable position then compared to
the same -4 with heel cups. HRII is a whole 'nother ballgame, wider, longer,
faster and with larger heel cups. Room to move & reposition during flight.
Elbows, shoulders & knees that touch NOTHING (not even parts of the other
person in the front seat ie: RV-6,7,9,) unless you want them to. Have not
flown in the rear seat of a -8 yet but have sat in one with the canopy
closed. Better than the -4 but not as roomy a Rocket.
I've said it before BUT I'll say it again. -4 front seat pilots NEED to fly
in the back seat With & W/O heel cups. The very FIRST comment when we gave a
ride to a -4 builder/pilot was "Wow, those cups made all the difference in
the world". Not Wow, what climbing, speed etc you would think about him
saying after a Rocket ride. Nope, the difference the heel cups made.
BUT don't take my word for it go sit in the back seat of -4 W/O and then
with. OR drop by APV & we'll prove it to ya'll. KABONG Do Not Archive

---


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f1rocket(at)telus.net
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

John,

You are so right.

People who have never been in a Rocket or RV comment on the acceleration,
climb, visability, speed, etc.
Those who have been in an RV-4 or a Rocket without the heel wells, immediately
tell me how much more comfortable my Rocket is than the others. They never put
it together that it is the heel wells but a few of us have figured it out. I
was surprised that the guys commented on the comfort instead of the speed. I
have ridden in an F1 without heel wells, but have yet to fly in the back from
one with (so far I'm the only one to fly my plane and why would I want to sit
in the back of someone elses? These things are just too fun to fly).
The only problem I have in my F1 is that the rudder pedals (passenger) are in
the way. I'm re-designing this right now. Only a problem for those with long
legs though. Pull the pedals out and it makes a big difference.

The ladies I have flown have commented on two things: Visability and solid
feel. Both my Mother and Wife seem to think the solid feel makes a plane
safer. I haven't bothered explaining wing loading vs landing speed to them,
I'm just happy that they like to fly with me.

Jeff
42 hours on kit 119

Quoting JOHN STARN <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>:

[quote]

Since I've flown in the back seat of an RV-4 with & without heel cups and
the HRII with them. (6-0 240#) I think I'm in a position to talk. The -4 W/O

puts you knees in a very drawn up & uncomfortable position then compared to
the same -4 with heel cups. HRII is a whole 'nother ballgame, wider, longer,

faster and with larger heel cups. Room to move & reposition during flight.
Elbows, shoulders & knees that touch NOTHING (not even parts of the other
person in the front seat ie: RV-6,7,9,) unless you want them to. Have not
flown in the rear seat of a -8 yet but have sat in one with the canopy
closed. Better than the -4 but not as roomy a Rocket.
I've said it before BUT I'll say it again. -4 front seat pilots NEED to fly
in the back seat With & W/O heel cups. The very FIRST comment when we gave a

ride to a -4 builder/pilot was "Wow, those cups made all the difference in
the world". Not Wow, what climbing, speed etc you would think about him
saying after a Rocket ride. Nope, the difference the heel cups made.
BUT don't take my word for it go sit in the back seat of -4 W/O and then
with. OR drop by APV & we'll prove it to ya'll. KABONG Do Not Archive

---


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jhstarn(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

In HRII N561FS we have removable rear seat rudder peddles. Takes about 1/2
hr to remove/install them. We keep them in a bag on the wall just in case
they are ever needed again. KABONG Do Not Archive

---


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panhandler1956



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Columbus, OH

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

I posted this on VansAirforce.net today, but I believe you Rocketeers are outnumbered over there. Anyway, I am really struggling with the whole RV-8 vs HRII decision. Seems like you can build both for close to the same amount of money. Also I can't afford an F-1 Rocket QB or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I plan to build over 5+ year period to pay cash (might finance the FWF) for the project so that might offset the complexity of the HRII.

Stuff I have identified:
RV-8
- much easier to build (this is a big one for me right now)
- more builder support
- no chance of burning 20gph (good and bad)
- not as pretty as the HRII (IMHO)
- cheaper to insure
HRII
- Fast
- Climbs like an elevator
- Hard to build with mixing 2 component manufacturers (3 in my case with F-1 parts too)
- Can build for about the same as an -8

I am pretty intimidated by the build compared to the factory -8. I am pretty handy and have rebuilt a wood and fabric biplane (Jungster I) and worked at a composite kit factory for 2 years building 2/3 scale P-51 replicas (FEW), but I have no metal airplane experience to speak of.

I fly for a living so the "hot" factor isn't a concern, but rather an advantage in my book - I like airplanes that scare kids and old ladies.

Any input is appreciated!

Brent

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by panhandler1956 : Today at 01:34 PM.


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fred.laforge(at)verizon.n
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

I restored a J-3 and a Swift, then built a RV-4 and am now building a
HR-II.I would recomend if you havent done metalworking, the RV-8 would be a
lot easier. Good luck with whatever your choice is.
---


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russ(at)wernerworld.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

If you have trouble with the decision you should build an RV8. There is NO
comparison, IMHO.

Russ
---


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n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

If you cannot afford an F1 you probably cannot afford an HRII.

Whatever you budget won't be enough by a long shot.

I'd opt for an 8


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T.gummo(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

I am/was a first time builder. I started a RV-4 but was able to convert it
to the Harmon Rocket-II. Yes, there were some head scratching times but if
you are building over a 5 year period, you will have lots of time to ask
questions. Build what you want and not what other people think you should.

It is true that John Harmon doesn't supply any instruction but several
blueprints to go with the Van's instructions and blueprints.. So what if it
is harder but if I can do it with NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL
you can. You can find help. Some of it is actually good Smile

However, John answered every one of my questions.

What part of the world are you in?? Stop by and see my plane and we will
talk.

Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II

do not archive

http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
---


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vft(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

I originally wanted to build a fastback RV-8 but found a great deal on a second hand F1 kit. Having worked for the past 5 years on my F1 and helping out on a friends RV-8 I can tell you that the 8 will be a lot eas ier and potentially less expensive than any Rocket. The primary difference during construction is that Vans has just about everything  figured out for you on their kits whereas the Rockets (even the QB? F1's) leave a lot up to the builder to figure out. 
 
But, as they say; "you get what to pay for" whether you are paying in blood, sweat, or cold hard cash. The RV-8 is a great airplane and if you chose to build one you will be comfortable with your decision. Up to the time someone in a Rocket shows up:)  
 
Danny Melnik
F1 #25
Melbourne (FL) Rocket Factory
 
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

N561FS, HRII IO-540 (rebuilt w/ 6 new jugs) (new prop) was within a coupla
trips for a hamburger of an RV-4 (that's less than a -Cool before the RV-10
guys got into the act.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want a Rocket, build a
Rocket. Don't wait til ya need the engine, start looking NOW.
If you think you can only afford a new Mustang, buy a used Corvette.
Iffen ya'll want a Harley, a Honda will just will not do.
No since in wishing when ya "coulda had a V8".
I coulda had an aircoupe or a Zodiac 601XL or a C-150 or..or... but instead
I'm impatiently waiting for the RV-12.
KABONG Do Not Archive

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

Russ you are so right. "There is NO comparison, IMHO".
Then you lost me, if there is NO comparison why would anyone build a -8 when
they want a Rocket. Unless they prefer the taxi wheel up front. BUT that's
an RV-8A 8*) KABONG HRII N561FS Do Not Archive.

Quote:


If you have trouble with the decision you should build an RV8. There is
NO
comparison, IMHO.

Russ


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

If one was to go fly both, you would only consider a Rocket.

I made a trip, long ago with a stop at Bakoland and a stop at Sunset,
Oregon. After a flight with Harmon, my wife asked if we really needed to go
to Oregon. Or would John sell his! We went to Oregon, but all I got was a
t-shirt, a set of RV4 plans, and a receipt for a tail kit. There was no
need to fly in Oregon. Couldn't find enough cylinders or HP to make it
worth it!

These rockets are pretty good planes. Another hundred HP or two and they'd
be really good! Where does that leave the RV8!

Russ
---


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

Brent

I made the mistake of riding in Russ's HR and then in
Harry's. One ride and there will be no question. The
8 guys can make as many claims as they want, but when
it comes down to it an 8 is not a Rocket and it never
will be. A 4 comes much closer to it, in fact it is,
just not with as much space and HP. For me it was the
Rocket or a 4, not an 8.

When picking my first plane, an RV9, I was looking at
the Zodiac and the RV. I was looking at the Zodiac
because I figured it would be cheaper and easier to
build and maybe I could trade up down the road. My
very wise girlfiend at the time said build the plane
you want, not the one you think you will trade up from
down the road.

In the end it's a freaking airplane not lunch, don't
settle for something less than you want.

Cam

RV9 flying 230 hours
NRII wings


--- Wernerworld <russ(at)wernerworld.com> wrote:

[quote]
<russ(at)wernerworld.com>

If one was to go fly both, you would only consider a
Rocket.

I made a trip, long ago with a stop at Bakoland and
a stop at Sunset,
Oregon. After a flight with Harmon, my wife asked
if we really needed to go
to Oregon. Or would John sell his! We went to
Oregon, but all I got was a
t-shirt, a set of RV4 plans, and a receipt for a
tail kit. There was no
need to fly in Oregon. Couldn't find enough
cylinders or HP to make it
worth it!

These rockets are pretty good planes. Another
hundred HP or two and they'd
be really good! Where does that leave the RV8!

Russ


---


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panhandler1956



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Columbus, OH

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

Wow!!!
Thanks for all the great advice!!!!! I appreciate everyone's valuable input.

I believe in my heart I was (am) settled on a Rocket, I guess I just needed a little encouragement before I dive into this very important decision. What Danny M. said goes to the quick of it, "The RV-8 is a great airplane and if you chose to build one you?will be?comfortable with your decision. Up to the time someone in a Rocket shows up:)??
?"
I guess it just comes down to money and time and with any high performance airplane it is expensive and relatively complex.

Wish me luck on building a Rocket...................I like the sound of that!
Thanks again!!!

Gummo,
Thanks for the invite and the encouragement, I am much closer to the "right" coast - Central Ohio. I believe there are some local Rocketeers here, I'll try to track them down. And seems like Indiana has a large population as well.

Regards,


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RocketRob



Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

Russ is spot on....There is no comparison!

If you live or fly around big granite rocks and on departure don't want to
circle around prior to jumping over them - you want a Rocket. Reno/Tahoe,
Telluride, Mammoth to name a few. Just Point the nose up and "leap over the
mountain in a single bound" Density altitude?

Just yesterday while doing some fly-fishing in eastern sierras
, flying out w/ my buddy in his 4, on departure out of Mammoth Lakes 7,100',
we had to circle over Crawly Lake to altitude(13,500') before he could cross
the rocks. I distinctly remember him saying...."I should have built a
Rocket".

There is no substitution for cubic inches!


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HR2Flyer



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Bountiful Skypark, BTF

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

When I started my Rocket I had no idea how I would ever afford and engine
and prop. I started by buying a used Rv-4 tail kit for $1,000 and kept after
it till it was done. One year the money materialized for the engine and I
have never regetted "Going for Broke" with the rocket. Once the plane is
flying fuel isint such a big expense(compared to construction)

Ron Carter

HR II

575 TTSN
---


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panhandler1956



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Columbus, OH

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread Reply with quote

HR2Flyer wrote:
When I started my Rocket I had no idea how I would ever afford and engine
and prop. I started by buying a used Rv-4 tail kit for $1,000 and kept after
it till it was done. One year the money materialized for the engine and I
have never regetted "Going for Broke" with the rocket. Once the plane is
flying fuel isint such a big expense(compared to construction)

Ron Carter

HR II

575 TTSN
---


Ron,
That's an awesome story! That is how I am approaching it. I am building a budget to show I can actually build an airplane without winning the lottery, but I am sure that I will find some "windfalls" along the way to either speed up the build or add more toys to the basic machine. Thanks for sharing your experience, that is most helpful!


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