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Attitude Adjustment

 
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kearney



Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

Hi

While escaping to frosty north for some sunshine in Florida, I did a bit of training on a ZLIN 242. Primarily it was unusual attitude recovery / spin training and a taste of aerobatics.

It has been a long, long time since I had done spins and more importantly spin recovery (24 years!). This got me to thinking, has anyone every spun the -10 and if so how did it handle.

In Canada, my -10 is placarded against aerobatics but I am not sure if that is the case in the US. Based on what I have learned, simple maneuvers rolls / chandells / wing-overs etc. that don't involve G loading should be fine in the -10. Has anyone proven this to be the case.

I am especially interested in the wing-overs as I fly near some pretty high granite. I know of a couple of pilots who didn't make it due to taking the wrong mountain pass and running out of sky.

Inquiring minds need to know....

Les


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

Hi Les,

I did all of the commercial maneuvers in the RV-10 for my
Commercial certificate. There's nothing in any of those
maneuvers that would stress the plane at all.

I have not, however, spun the plane. I did spin the RV-14,
but that is not at all the same.

Wingovers are very gentile so shouldn't be an issue, if you
do them right. Lets stress that again in an example...

I would normally say that rolls wouldn't be a big deal
if you do them correctly. Then I took someone who
hadn't rolled an RV out for a flight in my RV14 this
summer. I demonstrated and talked them thru a roll,
twice, and then let them try one.

Within a couple seconds of starting the maneuver,
we had performed a split-S, and were pointing straight
at the ground, with a higher airspeed than you would
enter a split-S with, because it was supposed to be
a roll. The slick RV built speed extremely rapidly,
and I, with a little shock, said I would take the
airplane, and started to pull out of the dive.
I pulled firmly up to 3.5, 3.6...3.8...4.0...4.1 G's,
and then held it and recovered to level.
Later on the ground I pondered what airspeed we
had hit. He said he thought he saw 186kts.
We pulled up the engine logs and found indeed we did
hit 186kts, which corrected for altitude would give
about 200kts..right at Vne. I was glad I had
recovered as quickly as I did, and was glad it was
in the RV-14 with it's 6G design.

So whereas I used to be of the opinion that a roll was
not a huge deal, I learned quickly that there's a
big difference between doing a proper roll and an
improper one. If someone was skilled in the maneuvers
already, sure, it will probably be no big deal...and if
you request aerobatic operating lims, you could probably
sign it off for your RV-10 (in the US).
But, I sure wouldn't want someone to take an RV-10 and
decide to roll it without already being current and
familiar with the maneuvers.

I'm sure the guy who was with me will read this, and
we'll have some fun in the RV-14 again some day.
We all learn, and that day we both learned something.
It's now a good chuckle for us and a notch in the
experience belt. Just make sure that whatever you do
in a non-aerobatic category airplane you do with skill
and care and finesse and that it goes perfectly. The
recovery if done wrong, may not.

Tim
On 1/13/2017 11:52 AM, kearney wrote:
Quote:


Hi

While escaping to frosty north for some sunshine in Florida, I did a
bit of training on a ZLIN 242. Primarily it was unusual attitude
recovery / spin training and a taste of aerobatics.

It has been a long, long time since I had done spins and more
importantly spin recovery (24 years!). This got me to thinking, has
anyone every spun the -10 and if so how did it handle.

In Canada, my -10 is placarded against aerobatics but I am not sure
if that is the case in the US. Based on what I have learned, simple
maneuvers rolls / chandells / wing-overs etc. that don't involve G
loading should be fine in the -10. Has anyone proven this to be the
case.

I am especially interested in the wing-overs as I fly near some
pretty high granite. I know of a couple of pilots who didn't make it
due to taking the wrong mountain pass and running out of sky.

Inquiring minds need to know....

Les



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gengrumpy



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 115
Location: Tullahoma, TN

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

In the “take it for what it’s worth” arena, I highly discourage any RV10 pilot from trying to roll the RV10, either barrel roll or aileron roll.

Early on in my test profiles, I did 2 barrel rolls as part of my test card work (former AF pilot with lots of test experience). In both cases, you lose roll authority fairly quickly as the speed bleeds off, so roll rate diminishes quite quickly, leaving you close to the 90 degree point is the airspeed falling off very quickly, resulting in a quick nose fall to well below the horizon before any speed builds back up, and without the speed, your roll authority is very slow….you can quickly end up nose 60-70 degrees low, in a bank with airspeed starting to increase. Unless you are an accomplished aerobatic pilot, do not try to roll the RV10. Even an old Champ rolls better than the RV10……

If you do find yourself in the situation that Tim describes (or mine), remember to do this (steps in order!):

1. Power to idle
2. Roll wings level
3. Pull to the horizon

The RV10 is not built for aerobatics! Wingovers, lazy 8s - yes. Rolls, Loops or Immelmans - NO!

grumpy

Quote:
On Jan 13, 2017, at 12:34 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:



Hi Les,

I did all of the commercial maneuvers in the RV-10 for my
Commercial certificate. There's nothing in any of those
maneuvers that would stress the plane at all.

I have not, however, spun the plane. I did spin the RV-14,
but that is not at all the same.

Wingovers are very gentile so shouldn't be an issue, if you
do them right. Lets stress that again in an example...

I would normally say that rolls wouldn't be a big deal
if you do them correctly. Then I took someone who
hadn't rolled an RV out for a flight in my RV14 this
summer. I demonstrated and talked them thru a roll,
twice, and then let them try one.

Within a couple seconds of starting the maneuver,
we had performed a split-S, and were pointing straight
at the ground, with a higher airspeed than you would
enter a split-S with, because it was supposed to be
a roll. The slick RV built speed extremely rapidly,
and I, with a little shock, said I would take the
airplane, and started to pull out of the dive.
I pulled firmly up to 3.5, 3.6...3.8...4.0...4.1 G's,
and then held it and recovered to level.
Later on the ground I pondered what airspeed we
had hit. He said he thought he saw 186kts.
We pulled up the engine logs and found indeed we did
hit 186kts, which corrected for altitude would give
about 200kts..right at Vne. I was glad I had
recovered as quickly as I did, and was glad it was
in the RV-14 with it's 6G design.

So whereas I used to be of the opinion that a roll was
not a huge deal, I learned quickly that there's a
big difference between doing a proper roll and an
improper one. If someone was skilled in the maneuvers
already, sure, it will probably be no big deal...and if
you request aerobatic operating lims, you could probably
sign it off for your RV-10 (in the US).
But, I sure wouldn't want someone to take an RV-10 and
decide to roll it without already being current and
familiar with the maneuvers.

I'm sure the guy who was with me will read this, and
we'll have some fun in the RV-14 again some day.
We all learn, and that day we both learned something.
It's now a good chuckle for us and a notch in the
experience belt. Just make sure that whatever you do
in a non-aerobatic category airplane you do with skill
and care and finesse and that it goes perfectly. The
recovery if done wrong, may not.

Tim






On 1/13/2017 11:52 AM, kearney wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> While escaping to frosty north for some sunshine in Florida, I did a
> bit of training on a ZLIN 242. Primarily it was unusual attitude
> recovery / spin training and a taste of aerobatics.
>
> It has been a long, long time since I had done spins and more
> importantly spin recovery (24 years!). This got me to thinking, has
> anyone every spun the -10 and if so how did it handle.
>
> In Canada, my -10 is placarded against aerobatics but I am not sure
> if that is the case in the US. Based on what I have learned, simple
> maneuvers rolls / chandells / wing-overs etc. that don't involve G
> loading should be fine in the -10. Has anyone proven this to be the
> case.
>
> I am especially interested in the wing-overs as I fly near some
> pretty high granite. I know of a couple of pilots who didn't make it
> due to taking the wrong mountain pass and running out of sky.
>
> Inquiring minds need to know....
>
> Les
>






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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 797
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

Here in the US the legal answer is, "What do your operating limits say". My DAR asked if I planned to do aerobatics (and if so he would re-write my phase one requirements). I said "no", my op limits say no aerobatics.

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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 797
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

To answer the original question, I believe Vans spin tested the original -10 prototype, and it recovered okay after 3 turns. I do not know if they ever did a fully developed spin.

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kearney



Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

Guys

Thanks for the info and perspective. I, for one, do not plan to attempt any acro in a -10. Mine is placarded against acro and I am not qualified. If I get the urge, I have access to an Acrosport II and an instructor.

It's good to know that it can recover from a spin. The ZLIN I was flying needed cowl strakes so it could recover from spins. This got me wondering how the -10 would react.

I was surprised that rolls would be an issue - they seemed benign in the ZLIN but of course that is a different airframe.
Cheers

Les


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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

When I was a baby pilot I learned basic aerobatics in a Grumman AA-1B.
There is only one requirement for survival from botched maneuvers, and
that's altitude. Tim's description of his passengers roll turning into
a split-S is a classic example of not enough entry airspeed and/or
excess power, and duplicated my first roll in the Grumman. I moved on
to an S-1 Pitts (my first experimental build) before I killed myself.
The Pitts makes a lousy cross-country airplane but does aerobatics quite
well. The -10 is a great cross country airplane but (IMHO) makes a
lousy aerobatic airplane. With a symmetrical airfoil it might perform
aerobatics quite well but would also kill it's cross country ability.
Les has already figured it out. If you want to do aerobatics, get a
plane designed for it. If you want to travel (like I will) use the -10.
Linn

On 1/13/2017 8:06 PM, kearney wrote:
Quote:


Guys

Thanks for the info and perspective. I, for one, do not plan to attempt any acro in a -10. Mine is placarded against acro and I am not qualified. If I get the urge, I have access to an Acrosport II and an instructor.

It's good to know that it can recover from a spin. The ZLIN I was flying needed cowl strakes so it could recover from spins. This got me wondering how the -10 would react.

I was surprised that rolls would be an issue - they seemed benign in the ZLIN but of course that is a different airframe.
Cheers

Les


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465057#465057



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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject: Attitude Adjustment Reply with quote

Or if you only need 2 seats, the RV14 is reasonably aerobatic and good for X/c.
Not nearly a Pitts but can be fun.
Tim

Quote:
On Jan 13, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> wrote:



When I was a baby pilot I learned basic aerobatics in a Grumman AA-1B. There is only one requirement for survival from botched maneuvers, and that's altitude. Tim's description of his passengers roll turning into a split-S is a classic example of not enough entry airspeed and/or excess power, and duplicated my first roll in the Grumman. I moved on to an S-1 Pitts (my first experimental build) before I killed myself.
The Pitts makes a lousy cross-country airplane but does aerobatics quite well. The -10 is a great cross country airplane but (IMHO) makes a lousy aerobatic airplane. With a symmetrical airfoil it might perform aerobatics quite well but would also kill it's cross country ability. Les has already figured it out. If you want to do aerobatics, get a plane designed for it. If you want to travel (like I will) use the -10.
Linn

> On 1/13/2017 8:06 PM, kearney wrote:
>
>
> Guys
>
> Thanks for the info and perspective. I, for one, do not plan to attempt any acro in a -10. Mine is placarded against acro and I am not qualified. If I get the urge, I have access to an Acrosport II and an instructor.
>
> It's good to know that it can recover from a spin. The ZLIN I was flying needed cowl strakes so it could recover from spins. This got me wondering how the -10 would react.
>
> I was surprised that rolls would be an issue - they seemed benign in the ZLIN but of course that is a different airframe.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465057#465057
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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