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Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil

 
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Guys

I am prepared to glue today the doors halves, and just realised that Aircraft Spruce didn't send me the Cab-o-Sil I had ordered last week.
I do have Cotton Fiber at hand, so my question is:
Can I use Cotton Fiber to thicken the gluing resin, instead of Cab-o-Sil?

Thanks
Carlos

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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1048
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

I'm no expert, but I wouldn't do it. The cabosil is much lighter, mixes more easily (but wear a mask...dust everywhere).

-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Guys

I am prepared to glue today the doors halves, and just realised that Aircraft Spruce didn't send me the Cab-o-Sil I had ordered last week.
I do have Cotton Fiber at hand, so my question is:
Can I use Cotton Fiber to thicken the gluing resin, instead of Cab-o-Sil?

Thanks
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Cab-o-sil ash no strength at all. But it does thicken up the epoxy.
I did a mixture of cotton flox and Cab-o-Sil for this application. Worked well.
Carl

On Mar 8, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I'm no expert, but I wouldn't do it. The cabosil is much lighter, mixes more easily (but wear a mask...dust everywhere).

-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Guys

I am prepared to glue today the doors halves, and just realised that Aircraft Spruce didn't send me the Cab-o-Sil I had ordered last week.
I do have Cotton Fiber at hand, so my question is:
Can I use Cotton Fiber to thicken the gluing resin, instead of Cab-o-Sil?

Thanks
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:21 am    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

I don't really see an issue with it, as long as the mixture isn't mixed so much in favor of Fiber that it becomes dry and unable to flow into the pores of the two halves.

Before I slathered it on, I'd use a small roller to roll-on a thin layer of resin only.  Just to be sure that it's given a chance to work into the pores.   Then I'd smear on the mixture.  It might help bring a bit more rigidity to the doors, which could be a good thing or a bad thing...  (Not sure.  But there are always trade offs)
In the big picture though, I don't see a problem with it as long as you've rolled on a coat of resin to get down into the surface.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Cab-o-sil ash no strength at all.  But it does thicken up the epoxy.  
I did a mixture of cotton flox and Cab-o-Sil for this application.  Worked well.
Carl

On Mar 8, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I'm no expert, but I wouldn't do it. The cabosil is much lighter, mixes more easily (but wear a mask..dust everywhere).

-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Guys

I am prepared to glue today the doors halves, and just realised that Aircraft Spruce didn't send me the Cab-o-Sil I had ordered last week.
I do have Cotton Fiber at hand, so my question is:
Can I use Cotton Fiber to thicken the gluing resin, instead of Cab-o-Sil?

Thanks
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 89
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Carlos,

Substituting cotton for Cab-o-sil to glue the door halves together would create a strong structure, but I can think of a few possible issues:
Cotton will be heavier.
Since the door is so highly curved, some resin will run out of the bond just due to gravity.  Cab helps prevent that.  So would a fast-curing resin and heat, but you'll have less working time Sad
The door may end up "thicker" since the cotton layer between the skins will be thicker than a resin/cab mixture.
If your layer of cotton isn't extremely uniform, you may end up with voids.
I think I just talked myself out of it!  I'd hold off until you can get some cabosil.
--Dave
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 4:35 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Guys

I am prepared to glue today the doors halves, and just realised that Aircraft Spruce didn't send me the Cab-o-Sil I had ordered last week.
I do have Cotton Fiber at hand, so my question is:
Can I use Cotton Fiber to thicken the gluing resin, instead of Cab-o-Sil?

Thanks
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

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====================================
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Thanks to you all for the quick and helpful responses.
I decided to wait to get the Cab-o-Sil.

Cheers
Carlos

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No dia 08/03/2017, às 14:42, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> escreveu:

[quote] Carlos,

Substituting cotton for Cab-o-sil to glue the door halves together would create a strong structure, but I can think of a few possible issues:

Cotton will be heavier.

Since the door is so highly curved, some resin will run out of the bond just due to gravity. Cab helps prevent that. So would a fast-curing resin and heat, but you'll have less working time Sad

The door may end up "thicker" since the cotton layer between the skins will be thicker than a resin/cab mixture.

If your layer of cotton isn't extremely uniform, you may end up with voids


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Gordon Anderson



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 35
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Carlos,

I glued the door halves together the first time with Cab-o-Sil.

I got nervous about the cracking noises when I tried to flex the doors, so I peeled them apart again by hand (very easy) and re-glued them using cotton flox as filler. There is no way they are coming apart this time, and I really cannot understand why Van's recommended a non-structural filler.

If you want to check for voids after gluing, backlight the assembly with a 150W floodlight in a darkened room. It's a highly effective "poor man's x-ray" once you can get the hang of interpreting the shadows.

Cheers,

Gordon, Switzerland
41015 finished this year, maybe.....


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Gordon Anderson wrote:
Carlos,

I glued the door halves together the first time with Cab-o-Sil.

I got nervous about the cracking noises when I tried to flex the doors, so I peeled them apart again by hand (very easy) and

Cheers,

Gordon, Switzerland
41015 finished this year, maybe.....


If you can peel apart by hand an epoxied joint something was not right.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

I agree with Bob. No matter what the thickening agent, the bonding is
in the resin. I suspect that the surfaces were not cleaned. I use 80
grit sandpaper to roughen the surfacers and either lacquer thinner or
MEK to clean before bonding. Also, I wet the surfaces with epoxy prior
to adding the thickener. I've used the cotton flox everywhere except
when I'm using micro balloons to fill/shape surfaces.
Linn
On 3/9/2017 6:05 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
Quote:

Gordon Anderson wrote:
> Carlos,
>
> I glued the door halves together the first time with Cab-o-Sil.
>
> I got nervous about the cracking noises when I tried to flex the doors, so I peeled them apart again by hand (very easy) and
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gordon, Switzerland
> 41015 finished this year, maybe.....

If you can peel apart by hand an epoxied joint something was not right.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:54 am    Post subject: Cotton fiber instead of Cab-o-Sil Reply with quote

Hi Gordon

Thanks for the answer, and the tips.
It also puzzled me why Van's recommend a non-structural filler but ....

Is your plane worth a new visit next time I'm in Swiss lands?

Cheers
Carlos

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No dia 09/03/2017, às 21:41, Gordon Anderson <mregoan(at)hispeed.ch> escreveu:

Quote:


Carlos,

I glued the door halves together the first time with Cab-o-Sil.

I got nervous about the cracking noises when I tried to flex the doors, so I peeled them apart again by hand (very easy) and re-glued them using cotton flox as filler. There is no way they are coming apart this time, and I really cannot understand why Van's recommended a non-structural filler.

If you want to check for voids after gluing, backlight the assembly with a 150W floodlight in a darkened room. It's a highly effective "poor man's x-ray" once you can get the hang of interpreting the shadows.

Cheers,

Gordon, Switzerland
41015 finished this year, maybe.....








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