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Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

 
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genie(at)swissmail.org
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

I have an Avid Flyer which originally had a STOLwing. Its wings have
been shortened to make it a Speedwing, as I would like to travel to
places. Does anyone know what effects that would have on the aircraft's
handling and tendency to groundloop? My Flyer has once suffered from a
groundloop, I was told. Thank you.

George Nielsen

Avid Flyer I-6640

The Hague, the Netherlands


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Guy Buchanan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1193
Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but I
might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster roll
rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in the air
and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, which is good
and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions are required on
your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the square of the
touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a gust to catch you or
other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings also offer less lift on
the ground and less opportunity for wind to push you around. Shorter
wings mean you can land in more crosswind, which is good. (More deck
angle plus higher landing speeds.)

I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them just
the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone to manage.

Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs
Glider pilot, too


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Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 912Uls / Warp / 500 hours and flying again.
Now a glider pilot too.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

Thank you for your reply. I find it useful. I have not spoken to anyone
who has flown both types.

What kind of gliders do you fly?

George

On 19-Apr-17 17:18, Guy Buchanan wrote:
Quote:


Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but
I might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster
roll rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in
the air and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, which
is good and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions are
required on your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the square
of the touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a gust to
catch you or other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings also offer
less lift on the ground and less opportunity for wind to push you
around. Shorter wings mean you can land in more crosswind, which is
good. (More deck angle plus higher landing speeds.)

I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them just
the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone to manage.

Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs
Glider pilot, too


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michaelgibbs(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

I don't know how the Avid Speed- and STOL wings compare to the Kitfox airfoil but I have about 15 hours in long-wing Kitfoxes and 67 hours with clipped ("Speedster") wings. Guy's analysis is basically correct although on the low-end there is very little difference in performance. The factory's stall speed figures are the same for both and any difference in approach and landing speeds is hard to even notice. The short wings provide a noticeably quicker roll rate (the factory claims 130 degrees/second) and a bit more speed in cruise.

All other things being equal, I prefer the handling qualities of the short wing and plan to clip the wings on my Series 7 Kitfox while it is down for its annual inspection this month.

Mike G.
Kitfox Series 7
Phoenix, AZ
Quote:
On Apr 19, 2017, at 11:10 PM, George Nielsen <genie(at)swissmail.org> wrote:



Thank you for your reply. I find it useful. I have not spoken to anyone who has flown both types.

What kind of gliders do you fly?

George

> On 19-Apr-17 17:18, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
>
> Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but I might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster roll rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in the air and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, which is good and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions are required on your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the square of the touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a gust to catch you or other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings also offer less lift on the ground and less opportunity for wind to push you around. Shorter wings mean you can land in more crosswind, which is good. (More deck angle plus higher landing speeds.)
>
> I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them just the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone to manage.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> Ramona, CA
> Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs
> Glider pilot, too



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Guy Buchanan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1193
Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

Mostly the rentals here at Warner, Grob 102s and 103s, though I have
some time in Duo's and Discus' at Omarama and Minden. I haven't
purchased one yet, but would love to have an ASW-20 with winglets.

Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs
Glider pilot, too

On 4/19/2017 11:10 PM, George Nielsen wrote:
Quote:


Thank you for your reply. I find it useful. I have not spoken to
anyone who has flown both types.

What kind of gliders do you fly?

George

On 19-Apr-17 17:18, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
>
> Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but
> I might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster
> roll rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in
> the air and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed,
> which is good and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions
> are required on your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the
> square of the touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a
> gust to catch you or other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings
> also offer less lift on the ground and less opportunity for wind to
> push you around. Shorter wings mean you can land in more crosswind,
> which is good. (More deck angle plus higher landing speeds.)
>
> I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them
> just the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone
> to manage.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> Ramona, CA
> Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs
> Glider pilot, too




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K-IV 1200 / 912Uls / Warp / 500 hours and flying again.
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nightmare



Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 427

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

Hey George, i used to give tailwheel instruction and Beech18 training, dont know about the difference between the two in groundlooping tendancy but will say that regaurdless of aircraft, as long as you are lazer focused on keeping that plane straight and not let it get started in having the ass end come around, there is no reason for a groundoop. Ive personally found that other than rudder use initially that quick brake stabs will keep you going in a straight line. Wheel landings will give more positive control too. Then get those toes dancing when that tail wheel touches the ground.

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Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing Reply with quote

Paul, thank you very much for your reply and your advice. I reckon that
I will have to resist the temptation of countering every turn to one
side with full rudder and instead just give quick rudder stabs. Do I
also have to give wheel brake stabs?

George

On 23-Apr-17 3:01, nightmare wrote:
Quote:


Hey George, i used to give tailwheel instruction and Beech18 training, dont know about the difference between the two in groundlooping tendancy but will say that regaurdless of aircraft, as long as you are lazer focused on keeping that plane straight and not let it get started in having the ass end come around, there is no reason for a groundoop. Ive personally found that other than rudder use initially that quick brake stabs will keep you going in a straight line. Wheel landings will give more positive control too. Then get those toes dancing when that tail wheel touches the ground.

--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive


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