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OT opinion from the peanut gallery

 
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steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

BLUF. I might have an option on getting an Aeronca 7AC Champ. What is y'alls opinion on using it as a training aircraft? Plusses and minuses, VS say the Cessna 172 or 152.
--
Blue Skies,

Steve D


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jarheadpilot82



Joined: 21 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Steve,

IMHO, I have always thought (other things being equal) that a tandem seat aircraft made a better trainer than side by side, but that is what I learned and later taught in. Others may think differently.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Terry, i learned in Cessna 150s. I think side by side enhances learning. tandem taildraggers may make better seat of the pants pilots.

On May 12, 2017 11:13 PM, "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com (jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com (jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com)>

Steve,

IMHO, I have always thought (other things being equal) that a tandem seat aircraft made a better trainer than side by side, but that is what I learned and later taught in. Others may think differently.

--------
Semper Fi,

Terry Hand
Athens, GA




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glen



Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Posts: 143
Location: Oregon Coast

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Hi all
After being out of the sky for almost 20 years,last August I had an opportunity to pick up at 172 so I did. I got tired of hitching rides.
Originally the idea was to get current and have something to fly while I'm building my peitenpol, then sell the 172. WHY would I do that? She's bought and paid for, doesn't owe me a dime, a nice XC airplane, reasonably cheap to opperate(7.5 gph )I could go on n on. Most importantly she's a very easy to fly, forgiving airplane(although I don't have to ask her forgiveness any more).
So when the peit is done I'll have two airplane/girlfriends: one for play and one for play😬
Quote:
On May 12, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> wrote:

BLUF. I might have an option on getting an Aeronca 7AC Champ. What is y'alls opinion on using it as a training aircraft? Plusses and minuses, VS say the Cessna 172 or 152.

--
Blue Skies,
Steve D


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Ray Krause



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 436

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

You will become a much better pilot by learning to fly in the Champ. But finding an instructor ( a good one) will be more difficult. If the potential instructor say he "loves" the Champ, he will be a good instructor. You are on the right path. But you will still need a few hours in the 170, or 172 to finish your instructions before the test.

A lover of Champs who still owns one,

Ray Krause

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On May 12, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> wrote:

BLUF. I might have an option on getting an Aeronca 7AC Champ. What is y'alls opinion on using it as a training aircraft? Plusses and minuses, VS say the Cessna 172 or 152.

--
Blue Skies,
Steve D


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

If you can land a champ well, you can probably land most anything. John Weber

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Quote:
On May 12, 2017, at 10:22 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> wrote:

BLUF. I might have an option on getting an Aeronca 7AC Champ. What is y'alls opinion on using it as a training aircraft? Plusses and minuses, VS say the Cessna 172 or 152.

--
Blue Skies,
Steve D


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Ray,  I have 200  hours in this very champ. I was not clear, I am becoming a CFI and if I get this plane, what are the pros or cons? Vs a 172 or 152/150?
On May 13, 2017 10:05 AM, "(null) raykrause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net (raykrause(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "(null) raykrause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net (raykrause(at)frontiernet.net)>

You will become a much better pilot by learning to fly in the Champ. But finding an instructor ( a good one) will be more difficult. If the potential instructor say he "loves" the Champ, he will be a good instructor. You are on the right path. But you will still need a few hours in the 170, or 172 to finish your instructions before the test.

A lover of Champs who still owns one,

Ray Krause

Sent from my iPad

> On May 12, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com (steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> BLUF. I might have an option on getting an Aeronca 7AC Champ. What is y'alls opinion on using it as a training aircraft? Plusses and minuses, VS say the Cessna 172 or 152.
>
> --
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D


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taildrags



Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 1532
Location: Medford, OR

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Steve: my comments follow.

My first flight in an airplane was in a Luscombe. My first solo was in a J-3. My next first solo (I ran out of money in college and didn't fly again for 8 years) was in a Citabria GCAA. Do you see where this is going? ;o)

If you get your CFI and can instruct in tailwheel aircraft, you will be in a rather sparse, if not elite, group of instructors who still do so.

While it is easier to give dual in a side-by-side arrangement, I think receiving dual in a tandem aircraft gives the student less of "the instructor can see everything I'm doing wrong" feeling and also makes them have to think and act more independently.

And my last comment, most military fighter pilots learn and fly in tandem-seating aircraft. Yes, there are many exceptions, but don't you want to be like a fighter pilot/instructor? ;o)


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Oscar and Pietenpeople

Well said Oscar! I don't come from a fighter pilot background but I've been blessed with lots of instructing opportunities in tailwheel airplanes for 25 years. I wholeheartedly agree that the best place for the student is in the front of a tandem and the best place for an instructor is of course in the back. I've taught zero time ab initio in Champs, trike to tailwheel conversions (it isn't classed as a rating in Canada) and done a multitude of tow pilot training and check outs in Citabrias and Cessna L-19s.

Quote:
From the perspective of the student he/she learns the effects of yaw and develops a centreline sight picture far quicker in a tandem than in a side by each. Tandem aircraft are typically longer coupled contributing to a greater forgiveness in ground handling. As Oscar said, whether dual or solo the student can't see their instructor - great for confidence during the first solo compared to that cavernous empty seat sitting next to them!

Quote:
From the rear seat you can see the beginnings of a yaw event much sooner as the yaw picture is amplified as you move back from the C of G (aiming a rifle vs a pistol analogy); you can shadow the stick and rudder without student awareness (great confidence builder) and finally you can quietly sit and enjoy the view of a summer flying evening without your student wondering why your body language suggests you're completely unengaged in their lesson!

I don't have a business providing tailwheel competency - people contact me through friends and colleagues. I never feel I'm "cutting the grass" of a new flight instructor hungry for hours because few if any have tailwheel skills to begin with. This wouldn't be the case if I taught in a trike.

My day job is training and checking on the line and in the simulator at my airline. I'm used to keen, motivated and engaged candidates. By no coincidence, pilots who wish to master tailwheel skills are cut from the same cloth. This makes for a great experience every time I go flying with them.

My vote is the Champ.

Scott Knowlton
Quote:
On May 13, 2017, at 4:54 PM, taildrags <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



Steve: my comments follow.

My first flight in an airplane was in a Luscombe. My first solo was in a J-3. My next first solo (I ran out of money in college and didn't fly again for 8 years) was in a Citabria GCAA. Do you see where this is going? ;o)

If you get your CFI and can instruct in tailwheel aircraft, you will be in a rather sparse, if not elite, group of instructors who still do so.

While it is easier to give dual in a side-by-side arrangement, I think receiving dual in a tandem aircraft gives the student less of "the instructor can see everything I'm doing wrong" feeling and also makes them have to think and act more independently.

And my last comment, most military fighter pilots learn and fly in tandem-seating aircraft. Yes, there are many exceptions, but don't you want to be like a fighter pilot/instructor? ;o)

--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC &quot;Scout&quot;
A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop




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Ray Krause



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 436

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

Steven,
In my estimate, the Champ is a real plane. It is very simple, the essence of flight. Whenever you think you know how to fly it, it will bite you in the butt and make you very humble. If you can fly the Champ well, you can fly anything. Most other planes will fly faster and further, consume more gas and make you look like an expert...and really cool. But anyone who can REALLY fly a Champ will understand.
My grandson learned in our Champ and got his license when he was a senior in high school. In just a few hours he was flying the 172. He is a much better pilot than I ever will be. However, I also learned to fly in a Champ 69 years ago...not the same plane, but a 7 AC. TODAY's young people just learn better and faster.
Enjoy the Champ, you will never regret it. Become a real pilot!
Ray Krause
SkyScout should fly this summer!

Sent from my iPad

On May 13, 2017, at 8:13 AM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com (steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Ray, I have 200 hours in this very champ. I was not clear, I am becoming a CFI and if I get this plane, what are the pros or cons? Vs a 172 or 152/150?
On May 13, 2017 10:05 AM, "(null) raykrause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net (raykrause(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "(null) raykrause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net (raykrause(at)frontiernet.net)>

You will become a much better pilot by learning to fly in the Champ. But finding an instructor ( a good one) will be more difficult. If the potential instructor say he "loves" the Champ, he will be a good instructor. You are on the right path. But you will still need a few hours in the 170, or 172 to finish your instructions before the test.

A lover of Champs who still owns one,

Ray Krause

Sent from my iPad

> On May 12, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com (steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> BLUF. I might have an option on getting an Aeronca 7AC Champ. What is y'alls opinion on using it as a training aircraft? Plusses and minuses, VS say the Cessna 172 or 152.
>
> --
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D


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tools



Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 714

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: OT opinion from the peanut gallery Reply with quote

I'd say if you want to instruct in a champ, just make sure the gear isn't slap worn out. Many champs, and Chiefs, suffer from collapsed springs and the belief that the oil in them isn't important. These are difficult machines to manage in decent winds on concrete.

The tandam thing is miserable if you don't have a decent intercom. Not that difficult in a enclosed cockpit.

It's a miserable adverse yaw machine, which DOES force you to learn to fly coordinated and keep the ailerons in the correct spot if the plane is MOVING, at all!

If a 65hp machine, you'll never be able to teach someone to fly at pattern altitude... Some students just won't be feasible. 85 much better, beefed up 85 probably the way to go.

Considering the other two machines, I'd prefer the champ by a long shot. If you want regular work, the other two. While you will be a rare bird, there aren't many folks really wanting to take on a taildragger.

I LOVE instructing in my 120. Don't even flinch at a direct 15 to 18 kt direct crosswind.

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