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Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

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jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

All,



The good news from today is that I successfully ran my freshly 

overhauled O-200 today in preparation for a FAA inspection in a few 

weeks.  The bad news is that I am getting no alternator output at all.  

The alternator is a B&C 200G PM dynamo, wired per Z-17 (no master 

contactor.)  Running the engine between idle and 1800 RPM saw no change 

in bus voltage, which stayed at the same 13.1V as it did with the engine 

not running.



Troubleshooting so far- besides checking all wiring connections, I 

verified that the OV relay is working and that I wired it correctly.  I 

verified that the alternator's raw output was as expected (15-25VAC, 

increasing with speed.)  I measured voltage at the capacitor (just 

downstream of the regulator) and it was the same 13.1 and did not vary 

with speed.  Disconnecting the regulator I verified that there is zero 

volts coming out of the regulator, although I understand from the 

troubleshooting documents that it must have bus voltage applied in order 

to output, so I'm thinking this doesn't mean much.



Is this as simple as a bad regulator?  I'm going to call B & C first 

thing tomorrow but I thought I'd check here first.



Thanks



Jeff Point



Milwaukee

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

At 10:04 PM 7/11/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com>



 All,



 The good news from today is that I successfully ran my freshly overhauled O-200 today in preparation for a FAA inspection in a few weeks.  The bad news is that I am getting no alternator output at all.  

 The alternator is a B&C 200G PM dynamo, wired per Z-17 (no master contactor.)  Running the engine between idle and 1800 RPM saw no change in bus voltage, which stayed at the same 13.1V as it did with the engine not running.



 Troubleshooting so far- besides checking all wiring connections, I verified that the OV relay is working and that I wired it correctly.  I verified that the alternator's raw output was as expected (15-25VAC, increasing with speed.)  I measured voltage at the capacitor (just downstream of the regulator) and it was the same 13.1 and did not vary with speed.  Disconnecting the regulator I verified that there is zero volts coming out of the regulator, although I understand from the troubleshooting documents that it must have bus voltage applied in order to output, so I'm thinking this doesn't mean much. 	


   Yes . . . was your alternator disconnect relay closing when

   you moved the switch to ALT+BAT postion?



 

   Bob . . .

jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:51 am Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

Bob,     

The only relay I have in the system is the small black relay       which connects to the crowbar module, and I did verify that it was       working.  I cycled it on and off several times while running the       engine (via the circuit breaker) with no change in bus voltage.  

          

Jeff

          

     On 7/11/17 11:16 PM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         

         Yes . . . was your alternator disconnect relay closing when

         you moved the switch to ALT+BAT postion?

       

                

             Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:06 am Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

At 06:50 AM 7/12/2017, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 The only relay I have in the system is the small black relay which connects to the crowbar module, and I did verify that it was working.  I cycled it on and off several times while running the engine (via the circuit breaker) with no change in bus voltage.  



 Jeff 	


   Hmmm . . . without putting my own hands on it

   and probing with the instruments . . . it does

   sound like a faulty R/R. Check with B&C



 

 

   Bob . . .

jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:12 am Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

Update- A call to B&C and a new regulator was on it's way to       me.  They agreed that, while rare, the symptoms and trouble       shooting indicated a bad one.  I got the new one, installed it...       and nothing.  The same results.     

I've confirmed that the dynamo is putting out AC voltage which       varies with engine speed as it should.  I confirmed that the       regulator is seeing battery voltage (13.1) with the motor off.  I       confirmed that the relay is working.     

Interestingly, after a longer runup including 10 seconds at full       power, battery voltage at the end was 0.2V higher than when we       started the run.  This was measured at the panel voltmeter and       confirmed by my electrician friend with his high-doller Fluke       meter at the battery.

          

One data point that I failed to mention- I'm running a Earth-X       680C LiFePo battery, and perhaps this battery with it's built-in       electronics is somehow disrupting the normal workings of things?        I would still expect bus voltage to come up to the set point of       14.4 at full power, but it did not.

          

Jeff

          On 7/11/17 11:16 PM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         At 10:04 PM 7/11/2017, you wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  -->           AeroElectric-List message           posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com> (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)

           

           All,

           

           The good news from today is that I successfully ran my freshly           overhauled           O-200 today in preparation for a FAA inspection in a few           weeks.  The           bad news is that I am getting no alternator output at all.  

           The alternator is a B&C 200G PM dynamo, wired per Z-17 (no           master           contactor.)  Running the engine between idle and 1800 RPM saw           no           change in bus voltage, which stayed at the same 13.1V as it           did with the           engine not running.

           

           Troubleshooting so far- besides checking all wiring           connections, I           verified that the OV relay is working and that I wired it           correctly.  I verified that the alternator's raw output was as           expected (15-25VAC, increasing with speed.)  I measured           voltage at           the capacitor (just downstream of the regulator) and it was           the same 13.1           and did not vary with speed.  Disconnecting the regulator I           verified           that there is zero volts coming out of the regulator, although           I           understand from the troubleshooting documents that it must           have bus           voltage applied in order to output, so I'm thinking this           doesn't mean           much. 	
       

         Yes . . . was your alternator disconnect relay closing when

         you moved the switch to ALT+BAT postion?

       

                

             Bob . . .

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:56 am Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

Occasionally relays will physically close but not pass current.

Might be worth hard wiring across the relay contacts to confirm.

Might be worth clipping a conventional battery onto the Earth-x to see 

what happens.

I think my dynamo will go a lot higher than 25vac if it has no load. My 

next step might be to conform the AC output under load perhaps by 

clipping an automotive headlamp onto the AC output. I'd expect it to 

brighten right up at fast idle.

Ken

On 16/07/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Point wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Update- A call to B&C and a new regulator was on it's way to me.  They 

 agreed that, while rare, the symptoms and trouble shooting indicated a 

 bad one.  I got the new one, installed it... and nothing.  The same 

 results.

 I've confirmed that the dynamo is putting out AC voltage which varies 

 with engine speed as it should.  I confirmed that the regulator is 

 seeing battery voltage (13.1) with the motor off. I confirmed that the 

 relay is working.

 Interestingly, after a longer runup including 10 seconds at full 

 power, battery voltage at the end was 0.2V higher than when we started 

 the run.  This was measured at the panel voltmeter and confirmed by my 

 electrician friend with his high-doller Fluke meter at the battery.

 One data point that I failed to mention- I'm running a Earth-X 680C 

 LiFePo battery, and perhaps this battery with it's built-in 

 electronics is somehow disrupting the normal workings of things?  I 

 would still expect bus voltage to come up to the set point of 14.4 at 

 full power, but it did not.

 Jeff

 On 7/11/17 11:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

> At 10:04 PM 7/11/2017, you wrote:

>> 

>>

>> All,

>>

>> The good news from today is that I successfully ran my freshly 

>> overhauled O-200 today in preparation for a FAA inspection in a few 

>> weeks.  The bad news is that I am getting no alternator output at all.

>> The alternator is a B&C 200G PM dynamo, wired per Z-17 (no master 

>> contactor.)  Running the engine between idle and 1800 RPM saw no 

>> change in bus voltage, which stayed at the same 13.1V as it did with 

>> the engine not running.

>>

>> Troubleshooting so far- besides checking all wiring connections, I 

>> verified that the OV relay is working and that I wired it 

>> correctly.  I verified that the alternator's raw output was as 

>> expected (15-25VAC, increasing with speed.)  I measured voltage at 

>> the capacitor (just downstream of the regulator) and it was the same 

>> 13.1 and did not vary with speed.  Disconnecting the regulator I 

>> verified that there is zero volts coming out of the regulator, 

>> although I understand from the troubleshooting documents that it 

>> must have bus voltage applied in order to output, so I'm thinking 

>> this doesn't mean much.

>

>   Yes . . . was your alternator disconnect relay closing when

>   you moved the switch to ALT+BAT postion?

>

>   Bob . . .

>

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

At 07:12 AM 7/16/2017, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Update- A call to B&C and a new regulator was on it's way to me.  They agreed that, while rare, the symptoms and trouble shooting indicated a bad one.  I got the new one, installed it... and nothing.  The same results. 	


   Has this system EVER worked? 



 

 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

Jeff,

With the engine running, measure the voltage between the regulator red and black wires.  Then measure the voltage between aircraft ground and the regulator black wire.  Engine still running, measure voltage between the battery positive terminal and the regulator red wire.  Let us know what you find.

_________________
Joe Gores

jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

This is a new installation on an almost-finished but not yet flown homebuilt... so no.  The 200G did work in its previous installation, but it was sent back to B&C for an inspection following a prop strike accident, at which time it was updated to the latest and greatest guts.  The new guts required a new regulator as well, as the old one (which worked in the previous installation) would not work with the updated unit.

Jeff



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 16, 2017, at 4:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 07:12 AM 7/16/2017, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Update- A call to B&C and a new regulator was on it's way to me.  They agreed that, while rare, the symptoms and trouble shooting indicated a bad one.  I got the new one, installed it... and nothing.  The same results. 	


   Has this system EVER worked? 



 

 

   Bob . . .

jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

I'll give that all a whirl... but with Oshkosh around the corner it will be a couple of weeks.  In the mean time help me out- what would you expect to learn from these measurements?



I also have an old but serviceable Odessey 680 that I will swap out for the Earth-x and see if that makes a difference. 



Jeff



See you all in Oshkosh next week. 



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 16, 2017, at 4:54 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Jeff,

 With the engine running, measure the voltage between the regulator red and black wires.  Then measure the voltage between aircraft ground and the regulator black wire.  Engine still running, measure voltage between the battery positive terminal and the regulator red wire.  Let us know what you find.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471070#471070

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Troubleshooting 200G/ Z-17

Measuring voltage between the regulator red and black wires will tell if the regulator is working or not.

Measuring voltage between aircraft ground and regulator black wire will tell how well the regulator is grounded.

Measuring voltage between battery positive and regulator red wire will tell if all connections are good and have low resistance.

The more information that we have, the easier it will be to troubleshoot the problem.

_________________
Joe Gores

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