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Starter Solenoid Diode

 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

My Spanish uncle would call it a “Dye-Oh-Doe” and I know I need one however I do not know what value nor where to install it.

I want an indicator on my EMS to monitor the starter motor being energized and a cyber friend recommended installing a 1N4004 diode on my “I” pole of my starter solenoid to protect the Dynon EMS sensor and he drew up the attached PDF diagram and I will certainly do as he recommends.

The additional question is…can someone also provide me with a quick schmatic of what diode I should use and where and what polarity to install it to protect from electrical spikes (in the same manner as one does for master contactors)?

..

THANKS GUYS…I am making progress this week (for a change)!!!

Bill Hunter


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user9253



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Bob Nuckolls' diagrams have diodes and part numbers. Choose a diode that is physically strong enough to not break easily. Diodes are connected in parallel with coils to protect the controlling switch. The banded end of arc suppression diodes must connect to the positive side of coils. Connecting a diode backwards will cause smoke.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

On 8/2/2017 9:07 PM, William Hunter wrote:

Quote:
<![endif]--> <![endif]-->


My Spanish uncle would call it a Dye-Oh-Doe and I know I need one however I do not know what value nor where to install it.

I want an indicator on my EMS to monitor the starter motor being energized and a cyber friend recommended installing a 1N4004 diode on my I pole of my starter solenoid to protect the Dynon EMS sensor and he drew up the attached PDF diagram and I will certainly do as he recommends.

The additional question iscan someone also provide me with a quick schmatic of what diode I should use and where and what polarity to install it to protect from electrical spikes (in the same manner as one does for master contactors)?

..

THANKS GUYSI am making progress this week (for a change)!!!

Bill Hunter

The diode *is* a 1N4004; that's the ID of the diode. The bar at the pointy end of the symbol matches the band on the diode. Google the part number & you'll get specs (current handling, max allowable reverse voltage, etc), but it's not particularly critical if it's just used for isolation in a sensing circuit.

Now, what it will do, connected as shown, is another question entirely. Without knowing the characteristics of the Dynon's input, it seems unlikely that it will do anything. The I terminal goes from floating to high (12V) when the start contacts close. But the diode, as drawn, will block that 12V from reaching the Dynon. Now, if the Dynon's input needs a signal to go low (zero) instead of high, to activate the input, the circuit shown won't do that, either.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

I had the same concerns as Charlie but did not say anything because I was not sure. After sleeping on it, connecting an inductive load (starter) in parallel with a Dynon input might not be a good idea. I suggest that input be used instead for the Air filter door position sensor.
That diode will NOT protect the Dynon input from an inductive voltage spike. Notice that the diode and Dynon input combination are connected in parallel with the inductor (starter). And the banded end of the diode is connected to positive. That is the same orientation as arc suppression diodes. Therefore the diode will conduct inductive spikes right through the Dynon input. The Dynon manual states, "The voltage on the general purpose inputs must not exceed 15 volts." I would call Dynon support before connecting an inductive load in parallel with an input.
If Dynon gives the OK, would the circuit actually work? I assume the Dynon input supplies 5 volts through a pull-up resistor. The input will be normally grounded through the starter motor. When the contactor is energized, Dynon input current will stop flowing because the load (starter) will draw current from the highest voltage source which is the aircraft battery. The Dynon input will then go high from the 5 volt pull-up resistor.
Like I said, I am not sure. I will not be insulted if someone corrects me. Opposing views encouraged.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Joe and Charlie,

As always I am VERY GRATEFUL for your time and help!!! I will call Dynon
today as soon as they open.

As Joe recommends, I might just eliminate the "I" post input to the Dynon
and roll (err...fly) with a simple LED next to the starter pushbutton.

As Joe was hitting send I was studying the AeroElectric diagrams.
Regardless of what I do with the "I" post, I still need an external diode on
my Ford starter solenoid.

I assume that the external diode needs to run from the "S" pole to the
solenoid case ground (a composite airplane) with the banded end closest to
the "S" pole as shown in the attached schematic). Can you PLEASE look it
over and make sure I got it right.

Quote:
I assume the Dynon input supplies 5 volts through a pull-up resistor.

This whole "Pull Up" resistor thing is confusing. The sensor inputs of the
Dynon EMS show 5 VDC. Here is a quote from the Dynon Tech Support on one of
the threads " The pin is pulled up internally to 5V. This means it's 5V when
nothing is connected and some path to ground is needed to reduce the voltage
below 5V. So you get 5V when nothing is connected and 0V when you connect
the wire to ground. This isn't "magic," it's just a 10K resistor to 5V."
.

THANKS AGAIN!!!

Bill Hunter


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Bill, yes the diode is connected correctly. It is directly across the coil with the banded end on the positive side.
About pull-up resistors:
The only way that an input can tell if a switch is open or closed is by sending a small current through the switch. Current flows when the switch is closed and current stops when the switch is open. The current must be limited to protect the 5 volt source and to protect the wires. A 10K series resistor limits the current. That resistor is called a pull-up resistor.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Thanks Joe!!!

Very clear explanation...You would make an excellent electronics
instructor!!!

Thankfully there is still a Radio Shack in town...limited components but I
hope they will have the Dye-Oh-doe I need.

.

Cheers!!!

Bill Hunter

--


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

At 09:07 PM 8/2/2017, you wrote:
Quote:


My Spanish uncle would call it a Dye-Oh-Doe and I know I need one however I do not know what value nor where to install it.

I want an indicator on my EMS to monitor the starter motor being energized and a cyber friend recommended installing a 1N4004 diode on my I pole of my starter solenoid to protect the Dynon EMS sensor and he drew up the attached PDF diagram and I will certainly do as he recommends.

The additional question iscan someone also provide me with a quick schmatic of what diode I should use and where and what polarity to install it to protect from electrical spikes (in the same manner as one does for master contactors)?

.

THANKS GUYSI am making progress this week (for a change)!!!

Bill Hunter

Can't imagine why . . . if your EMS has inputs designed to
attach to any source of power on the airplane for the purposes
of monitoring (voltmeter input) then just tie it to the "I"
terminal directly. The diode as he as shown it would actually
prevent the EMS from seeing voltage on the "I" terminal.


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

At 10:38 AM 8/3/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
At 09:07 PM 8/2/2017, you wrote:
Quote:


My Spanish uncle would call it a Dye-Oh-Doe and I know I need one however I do not know what value nor where to install it.

I want an indicator on my EMS to monitor the starter motor being energized and a cyber friend recommended installing a 1N4004 diode on my I pole of my starter solenoid to protect the Dynon EMS sensor and he drew up the attached PDF diagram and I will certainly do as he recommends.

The additional question iscan someone also provide me with a quick schmatic of what diode I should use and where and what polarity to install it to protect from electrical spikes (in the same manner as one does for master contactors)?

.

THANKS GUYSI am making progress this week (for a change)!!!

Bill Hunter

Can't imagine why . . . if your EMS has inputs designed to
attach to any source of power on the airplane for the purposes
of monitoring (voltmeter input) then just tie it to the "I"
terminal directly. The diode as he as shown it would actually
prevent the EMS from seeing voltage on the "I" terminal.

Oh, okay. If the input port to the Dynon is NORMALLY
looking for a 0-5v signal, then yes . . . as Joe
has pointed out, a pull-up resistor on the Dynon side
of the diode is needed to raise the input to approx 5v
when the "I" terminal RISES ABOVE 5v (starter getting power
from battery).

If, in this case, the EMS input is tailored to 0-5v
sensor inputs, then it may NOT be protected internally
for general used looked at voltages elsewhere on the
system. Do check with Dynon as to absolute maximums
that the input will tolerate.


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:56 am    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Hi All, 
I know everyone has been rooting for me so I figured I would post back on my progress. 
I tried wiring up the sensor pin using the diode as was suggested on the Dynon forum however I did not have any luck so I had to use my lifeline and called Dynon tech support and as usual they were extremely helpful. 
After trying different EMS settings and diode polorisation and such it appears that the only way I could get my starter contactor annunciation to work is to connect the sensor pin to the same 5/16 starter contactor output terminal that the starter motor cable is connected to... in other words the "I" terminal will not work. It seems that the sensor pin needs to see some kind of a ground for it to get "pulled down"  to low and since the "I"  terminal does not have any path the ground when the starter contactor is not energized there's no way I could get it to work. 
I'm happy that at least now my starter engaged annunciator will illuminate however after I got off the phone I am now wondering if I need some kind of protection between the starter contactor output pole and the EMS sensor wire.  
Anyhoo, thanks for all your help, well wishes, moments of silence, finger crossing, and other positive energy telepathic thought waves!!! 
Baby steps to Dynon Bliss!!!
Thanks,
Bill Hunter On Aug 3, 2017 9:51 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 10:38 AM 8/3/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
At 09:07 PM 8/2/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
 
 
My Spanish uncle would call it a “Dye-Oh-Doe” and I know I need one however I do not know what value nor where to install it.
 
I want an indicator on my EMS to monitor the starter motor being energized and a cyber friend recommended installing a 1N4004 diode on my “I” pole of my starter solenoid to protect the Dynon EMS sensor and he drew up the attached PDF diagram and I will certainly do as he recommends.
 
The additional question is…can someone also provide me with a quick schmatic of what diode I should use and where and what polarity to install it to protect from electrical spikes (in the same manner as one does for master contactors)? 
 
.
 
THANKS GUYS…I am making progress this week (for a change)!!!
 
Bill  Hunter

   Can't imagine why . . . if your EMS has inputs designed to
   attach to any source of power on the airplane for the purposes
   of monitoring (voltmeter input) then just tie it to the "I"
   terminal directly. The diode as he as shown it would actually
   prevent the EMS from seeing voltage on the "I" terminal.

   Oh, okay. If the input port to the Dynon is NORMALLY
   looking for a 0-5v signal, then yes . . . as Joe
   has pointed out, a pull-up resistor on the Dynon side
   of the diode is needed to raise the input to approx 5v
   when the "I" terminal RISES ABOVE 5v (starter getting power
   from battery).

   If, in this case, the EMS input is tailored to 0-5v
   sensor inputs, then it may NOT be protected internally
   for general used looked at voltages elsewhere on the
   system. Do check with Dynon as to absolute maximums
   that the input will tolerate.


  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Since no one else has replied, I will give it a shot. I do not know if the EMS input needs protection or not. But if you want to add protection, the attached pdf should work. The left diode blocks aircraft current from flowing into the EMS input. The diode on the right shorts out any induced voltage spike. The two 500 ohm resistors divide starter voltage in half. The bottom resistor also provides a ground path to pull the EMS input voltage low (to about 0.25 V) when the contactor is not energized. 470 ohms is OK (nominal size)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Starter Solenoid Diode Reply with quote

Joe,
This is very helpful!!!
Thanks,
Bill Hunter On Aug 6, 2017 2:33 PM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Since no one else has replied, I will give it a shot.  I do not know if the EMS input needs protection or not.  But if you want to add protection, the attached pdf should work.  The left diode blocks aircraft current from flowing into the EMS input.  The diode on the right shorts out any induced voltage spike.  The two 500 ohm resistors divide starter voltage in half.  The bottom resistor also provides a ground path to pull the EMS input voltage low (to about 0.25 V) when the contactor is not energized.

--------
Joe Gores




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