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Do I need a Pull Up resistor?

 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Hi All,

Still plugging along...I know you all have been pulling for me!!!

The question is...did I buy the wrong magnetic sensor...or...do I need the
"Pull Up Resistor" as shown in the attached "Open Collector Sinking Block
Diagram"?

As a recap on my project

I built a fiberglass air filter box with a small door that will be pop open
if the air filter becomes blocked with ice and I bought a MP1007 Series
Magnetic sensor to monitor my air filter bypass door through my Dynon
Skyview Engine Monitor System.

I am currently bench testing the sensor with it hanging in open air and I
hold a small magnet near the sensor or away from the sensor.

Pin 8 of my Dynon EMS is going to monitor the following two items:

-Dynon Pitot tube heater failure. The Dynon pitot tube control box has a
white wire that is open when the heater is working properly and then when
the heater system is off or failed the system connects the white wire to
ground. Because of the logic of the Dynon pitot heater system I set up the
EMS Pin 8 to watch for a ground and if it sees a path to ground the
indicator on my EMS screen shows an amber dot and the word "ICE" (indicating
a failure of the Dynon pitot tube heater) and when the pin does not register
a path to ground the indicator is black and disappears from the screen.
This setup is working perfectly.

-Air filter door position. This will be monitored by the MP1007 sensor
however the sensor logic is working opposite of what I expected. I thought
the black output wire of the MP1007 sensor would be open when the magnet
target is close to the sensor (like when the air door is closed) and then
when the magnet is pulled away from the sensor (like when the air door pops
open) the black output wire would connect to ground...however it is exactly
opposite meaning magnet close = black wire grounded and magnet away = black
wire is open.

IF...this sensor works like I want it to then the it would work perfectly
and in parallel with my Dynon pitot heater.

I have connected the following wires of the sensor to my airplane system:

Sensor Wire Airplane Wire
BRN Pin 18 of the Dynon EMS system (this is a 5 VDC source)
BLK Pin 8 of the Dynon EMS (this is a "general purpose" sensor
described above)
BLU Ground

The MP1007 sensor instructions state:

Open Collector (NPN)
-Output switches low (off) when the magnetic field at the sensor exceeds the
operate point threshold
-Output switches high (on) when the magnetic field is reduced to below the
release point threshold

Any help or well wishes would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!
.

Cheers!!!

Bill Hunter


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1906
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Bill,
Do you have a SkyView or D-180 or what?
Do you have to connect the pitot sensor and magnetic sensor to the same EMS input? Is there another input that you can use?
Yeah, the data sheet is confusing. It says "OFF" when the transistor is actually on. If you ignore the "ON" and "OFF" and just read the rest of the text, it makes sense. It sounds like the sensor is working properly, a close magnet causes the output to go low. If you want the signal inverted, another transistor can do it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Thanks Joe I knew I could count on you!!!
Quote:
Do you have a SkyView or D-180 or what?
Skyview 1000

Quote:
Do you have to connect the pitot sensor and magnetic sensor to the same EMS input?  Is there another input that you can use?
I have used all of the input pins so I thought that it would be cleaver to combine the ice systems into one sensor pin.

Quote:
Yeah, the data sheet is confusing.  It says "OFF" when the transistor is actually on.  If you ignore the "ON" and "OFF" and just read the rest of the text, it makes sense.  It sounds like the sensor is working properly, a close magnet causes the output to go low.   If you want the signal inverted, another transistor can do it.
I assume that "another transistor" means I need to buy a "another sensor"?

Do you by chance know what the name of the correct unit will be? Regular switches are called Normally Open or Normally Open so what would a Normally Closed sensor be called?
THANKS AGAIN!!!
Bill Hunter On Aug 1, 2017 8:27 PM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Bill,
Do you have a SkyView or D-180 or what?
Do you have to connect the pitot sensor and magnetic sensor to the same EMS input?  Is there another input that you can use?
Yeah, the data sheet is confusing.  It says "OFF" when the transistor is actually on.  If you ignore the "ON" and "OFF" and just read the rest of the text, it makes sense.  It sounds like the sensor is working properly, a close magnet causes the output to go low.  If you want the signal inverted, another transistor can do it.

--------
Joe Gores




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Eric Page



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Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Bill,

The data sheet confirms what you're seeing at the bench, but this sensor can be made to work. The fix is pretty simple -- you just need to invert the output logic. This can be easily done with a few cheap components.

However, paralleling the inputs to Pin 8 without knowing how the pitot fail signal works is potentially dangerous. It's possible for one input signal to short the other one. The two inputs should be isolated from one another so they can't interact.

See the attached schematic diagram. Resistor R3 provides a weak pull-up on Pin 8, holding it at 5V. When your air door is closed and the sensor output is pulled to ground, P-MOSFET Q1 is turned on, and both sides of Schottky diode D1 (and therefore Pin 8) are at 5V. When the air door opens, the sensor output goes high impedance, allowing resistor R1 to turn Q1 off, in turn allowing R2 to overwhelm R3, pulling Pin 8 to ground through D1. D2 prevents the PITOT FAIL signal from holding Pin 8 at 5V. Likewise, when the PITOT FAIL signal pulls low through D2, D1 prevents Q1 from holding Pin 8 at 5V.

A couple of notes:

1. This circuit will pull ~5mA from your Dynon's Pin 18 at all times. You should check that this is within specifications.

2. Please check that your PITOT FAIL signal puts 5V on Pin 8 (when the pitot is working normally), and not 12V. If it's 12V, then this circuit needs to be changed slightly: R1 and R2 should be 2.7k, and the connection point labeled DYNON P18 should instead be connected to 12V.

If you need help building this circuit, just say the word.

Cheers,

Eric


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Bill, the Dynon EMS has 13 general purpose inputs. Are you sure that every one of them is already being used?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:58 am    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Quote:
the Dynon EMS has 13 general purpose inputs.  Are you sure that every one of them is already being used?
yep... every one is used... funny you should ask because I was going to post another question about thermocouples... I'll ask that on another thread



Thanks,
Bill Hunter On Aug 2, 2017 5:16 AM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Bill, the Dynon EMS has 13 general purpose inputs.  Are you sure that every one of them is already being used?

--------
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Bill, how about connecting the output of the magnetic sensor to a panel mounted LED light? A 150 ohm series resistor will limit current from a 5 volt source.
I glued an LED into a hole drilled into the instrument panel.
http://www.mouser.com/Optoelectronics/LED-Lighting/LED-Emitters/Standard-LEDs-Through-Hole/_/N-b1bc8Zscv7?P=1z0yt1mZ1yzxspgZ1yztlcbZ1yzrt8pZ1yztnraZ1yzldgwZ1yztlq8Z1ywu49aZ1yzuk8tZ1yztj3sZ1yztm0dZ1yuo70f&Ns=Package+%2f+Case%7c1


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Quote:
how about connecting the output of the magnetic sensor to a panel mounted
LED light?


Great idea Joe. I thought of that as well except that I paid big bucks for
all of this fancy EFIS stuff I and now addicted to all of the cool colors
and audio alerts. Dang...back in the day a guy cold fly all around the
country and all he needed was an oil pressure gauge, a sectional chart, and
a wrist watch...now with all this fancy stuff he "needs" more sensors and
widgets (but no sectional or watch)!!!

Anyhoo...Can you PLEASE take a look at this sensor and help me determine if
it will work?

The MP200702 advertises it is a SPST-NC and it is only two wires (attached
data sheet).

Since this is a two wire switch I can dispense with the 5 VDC power wire and
wire it up so that one wire goes to the EMS pin and the other wire is
connected directly to ground. I just need some "encouragement" that I
picked the correct switch this time because I just I got burned the last
time by the wording of the catalog...

I want it to be OPEN when the magnet is close and CLOSED when the magnet is
pulled away with the door.

.

THANKS AGAIN!!!

Bill Hunter


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Bill, it looks like your reasoning is correct. But why take a chance? Buy part number MP200703 with form "C" contacts. Then if the logic is wrong, just interchange the wires.
Did you notice that it is says "Reed-based" ? It is probably just a magnetic reed switch enclosed in a cylinder. Another hint is that it uses no power. Not that there is anything wrong with magnetic reed switches, but it might not be as sensitive as the electronic type. Sometimes reed switches can be finicky about the strength and orientation of the magnet. They work best when the longitudinal axis of the magnet is parallel with the longitudinal axis of the switch and they are both side by side. I am not saying that other orientations will not work, just that they work best as described.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

This hall effect proximity sensor has two outputs. It is pricey though with $20 shipping from England.
http://www.newark.com/comus/s1456/hall-effect-proximity-24vdc-cable/dp/49X0853
Allied also sells it, but for a higher price.
I am not guarantying it will work for your application.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Joe, you are definitely the guy to ask about this stuff!!!

Quote:
Buy part number MP200703 with form "C" contacts. Then if the logic is
wrong, just interchange the wires.


Good advice!!!

Quote:
Sometimes reed switches can be finicky about the strength and orientation
of the magnet. They work best when the longitudinal axis of the magnet is

parallel with the longitudinal axis of the switch and they are both side by
side. I am not saying that other orientations will not work, just that they
work best as described.

Hmmm...my plan is to insert the MP200703 into the foam board frame of the
air box (imagine a AA battery inserted into a foam board at a 90 degree) and
then on the fiberglass flapper valve I plan to bond the magnet (encapsulated
in fiberglass) onto the flapper door so that when the flapper door is closed
the aspirin pill shape/ sized magnet will be lying flat on top of the AA
battery with a thin fiberglass sheet in between.

THANKS AGAIN!!!
.

Cheers!!!

Bill Hunter

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

I posted several links to form C reed switches the 1st time Bill floated
this. Burglar alarm contacts are available that are designed for 'end to
end' orientation (recessed window/door contacts); I'm pretty sure I sent
some links to those. FWIW, reed switches are some of the most reliable
components you'll find; close to the reliability of wire itself.

Charlie

On 8/2/2017 4:02 PM, William Hunter wrote:
[quote]

Joe, you are definitely the guy to ask about this stuff!!!

> Buy part number MP200703 with form "C" contacts. Then if the logic is
wrong, just interchange the wires.

Good advice!!!

> Sometimes reed switches can be finicky about the strength and orientation
of the magnet. They work best when the longitudinal axis of the magnet is
parallel with the longitudinal axis of the switch and they are both side by
side. I am not saying that other orientations will not work, just that they
work best as described.

Hmmm...my plan is to insert the MP200703 into the foam board frame of the
air box (imagine a AA battery inserted into a foam board at a 90 degree) and
then on the fiberglass flapper valve I plan to bond the magnet (encapsulated
in fiberglass) onto the flapper door so that when the flapper door is closed
the aspirin pill shape/ sized magnet will be lying flat on top of the AA
battery with a thin fiberglass sheet in between.

THANKS AGAIN!!!
..

Cheers!!!

Bill Hunter

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

Thanks Charlie,
As they say... size matters... and the location I want to use these in my battery box is very limited so therefore the square like window switches would not work however the barrel shape and AA size battery shape would work perfectly in this installation.
I found the switch that Joe and I had discussed at Newark 4 less than 20 bucks delivered. I will report back with my results.
Thanks again for the advice,
Bill Hunter On Aug 2, 2017 4:11 PM, "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>

I posted several links to form C reed switches the 1st time Bill floated this. Burglar alarm contacts are available that are designed for 'end to end' orientation (recessed window/door contacts); I'm pretty sure I sent some links to those. FWIW, reed switches are some of the most reliable components you'll find; close to the reliability of wire itself.

Charlie

On 8/2/2017 4:02 PM, William Hunter wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com (billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com)>

Joe, you are definitely the guy to ask about this stuff!!!

Quote:
Buy part number MP200703 with form "C" contacts.  Then if the logic is
wrong, just interchange the wires.

Good advice!!!

Quote:
Sometimes reed switches can be finicky about the strength and orientation
of the magnet.  They work best when the longitudinal axis of the magnet is
parallel with the longitudinal axis of the switch and they are both side by
side.  I am not saying that other orientations will not work, just that they
work best as described.

Hmmm...my plan is to insert the MP200703 into the foam board frame of the
air box (imagine a AA battery inserted into a foam board at a 90 degree) and
then on the fiberglass flapper valve I plan to bond the magnet (encapsulated
in fiberglass) onto the flapper door so that when the flapper door is closed
the aspirin pill shape/ sized magnet will be lying flat on top of the AA
battery with a thin fiberglass sheet in between.

THANKS AGAIN!!!
.

Cheers!!!

Bill  Hunter





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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject: Do I need a Pull Up resistor? Reply with quote

!!!!!!!! IT WORKS... IT WORKS!!!!
Some POSITIVE FEEDBACK on my ICE annunciator.
I installed the Cherry Reed switch mp200 703 and connect it up the blue wire to ground and the brown wire to the Dynon EMS sensor wire that is shared with the Dynon pitot heater fail sensor wire.
The Dynon pitot heater fail annunciator is such that when the unit fails or is turned off the units sensor wire is grounded and since my new Cherry Reed switch is connected up in the manner that when the alternate air door is opened and therefore has moved the target magnet away it completes the circuit and provides a path to ground.
So now when the alternate air door opens due to ice blockage of the air filter and/or the heater system fails or is turned off I get my fancy blue ice annunciator on the EFIS screen
Conversely when the alternate air door is closed and/or the heater is turned on then I do not have an annunciation on the EFI screen.
As always, I am sincerely grateful for your time and help in this project! 
More questions to follow Im sure...
Thanks again,
Bill Hunter On Aug 1, 2017 9:11 PM, "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com (billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Thanks Joe I knew I could count on you!!!
Quote:
Do you have a SkyView or D-180 or what?
Skyview 1000

Quote:
Do you have to connect the pitot sensor and magnetic sensor to the same EMS input?  Is there another input that you can use?
I have used all of the input pins so I thought that it would be cleaver to combine the ice systems into one sensor pin.

Quote:
Yeah, the data sheet is confusing.  It says "OFF" when the transistor is actually on.  If you ignore the "ON" and "OFF" and just read the rest of the text, it makes sense.  It sounds like the sensor is working properly, a close magnet causes the output to go low.   If you want the signal inverted, another transistor can do it.
I assume that "another transistor" means I need to buy a "another sensor"?

Do you by chance know what the name of the correct unit will be? Regular switches are called Normally Open or Normally Open so what would a Normally Closed sensor be called?
THANKS AGAIN!!!
Bill Hunter On Aug 1, 2017 8:27 PM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Bill,
Do you have a SkyView or D-180 or what?
Do you have to connect the pitot sensor and magnetic sensor to the same EMS input?  Is there another input that you can use?
Yeah, the data sheet is confusing.  It says "OFF" when the transistor is actually on.  If you ignore the "ON" and "OFF" and just read the rest of the text, it makes sense.  It sounds like the sensor is working properly, a close magnet causes the output to go low.  If you want the signal inverted, another transistor can do it.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471418#471418






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