Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Manual intercom PTT

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

Listers,

My new Breezy is a high noise aircraft, to put it mildly. I have good a
good ANR headset to control the noise but I'm struggling with the
intercom (MGL V6) and even at the highest VOX settings, the wind noise
overpowers the intercom squelch, resulting in a near-continuous open
intercom.

To address this, I'm considering adding a momentary switch into the
microphone wiring to act as a sort of manual squelch/ PTT for the
intercom. It will still be noisy, but will only while talking with the
switch activated. Taken a step further, I might use a DPDT mom-off-mom
type switch so that one position enables the mic (intercom) and the
other enables the mic and the radio PTT (transmit.)

Has anyone implemented such a design as a way of dealing with a high
noise situation? Is there any reason why this idea wouldn't work?

Thanks

Jeff Point

Milwaukee


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
enginerdy(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

Are you certain there are no issues with the wind noise interfering with the ANR and making it more noisy?

That could sound like an open mic, possibly.
I invite others to comment on this, but I believe you could just ground the mic terminal to silence it. There is mic bias voltage on that pin that powers the microphone capsule, but it should run through enough resistance inside the radio that this should be no problem.

If that makes you uncomfortable, shorting it through a capacitor should be fine as well. In that case, you’d want a 1M resistor across the shorting switch to keep the capacitor charged to prevent a big POP when the switch is thrown.

You could get some version of that done with a DPDT like you described.

Quote:
On Sep 8, 2017, at 7:17 PM, Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com> wrote:



Listers,

My new Breezy is a high noise aircraft, to put it mildly. I have good a good ANR headset to control the noise but I'm struggling with the intercom (MGL V6) and even at the highest VOX settings, the wind noise overpowers the intercom squelch, resulting in a near-continuous open intercom.

To address this, I'm considering adding a momentary switch into the microphone wiring to act as a sort of manual squelch/ PTT for the intercom. It will still be noisy, but will only while talking with the switch activated. Taken a step further, I might use a DPDT mom-off-mom type switch so that one position enables the mic (intercom) and the other enables the mic and the radio PTT (transmit.)

Has anyone implemented such a design as a way of dealing with a high noise situation? Is there any reason why this idea wouldn't work?

Thanks

Jeff Point

Milwaukee






- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

I don't have a particularly noisy cockpit but I do use a flight tech intercom which uses a full time microphone noise suppressor chip from the telephone industry to cancel mic noise in noisy and open cockpits. It seems to ignore anything other than my voice effectively and is the only intercom I've ever been completely happy with.

http://www.flighttech.com/

Ken
On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)>

Listers,

My new Breezy is a high noise aircraft, to put it mildly.  I have good a good ANR headset to control the noise but I'm struggling with the intercom (MGL V6) and even at the highest VOX settings, the wind noise overpowers the intercom squelch, resulting in a near-continuous open intercom.

To address this, I'm considering adding a momentary switch into the microphone wiring to act as a sort of manual squelch/ PTT for the intercom.  It will still be noisy, but will only while talking with the switch activated.  Taken a step further, I might use a DPDT mom-off-mom type switch so that one position enables the mic (intercom) and the other enables the mic and the radio PTT (transmit.)

Has anyone implemented such a design as a way of dealing with a high noise situation?  Is there any reason why this idea wouldn't work?

Thanks

Jeff Point

Milwaukee

====================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

At 07:17 PM 9/8/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com>

Listers,

My new Breezy is a high noise aircraft, to put it mildly. I have good a good ANR headset to control the noise but I'm struggling with the intercom (MGL V6) and even at the highest VOX settings, the wind noise overpowers the intercom squelch, resulting in a near-continuous open intercom.

Mic selection is tricky. Noise abatement falls into
two categories: Ambient noise that equally impinges
on both sides of the microphone's diaphragm and wind
noise which is a manifestation of turbulence over
the mic enclosure openings . . . which can NEVER be
equal and opposite to each side of the mic . . . hence
no noise canceling.

Airplane radios of the 30's and 40's
had a similar problem. The airplanes were
very noisy and there was no practical way
to do the dual-port cartridge to reduce ambient
noise. Aircraft mics of this era typically
had one or perhaps three small holes which
served as a simple, noise attenuator. To be
understood, you put your lips to the microphone's
face cup. Those WWII movies with John Wayne
hollering over the radio with a microphone
10 inches from his face were a bit laughable.

[img]cid:.0[/img]

Intercom and radio systems in high noise environments
often feature 'throat microphones' . . . a simple
elastic strap that held two carbon cartridges against
the throat, one on each side of the larynx. These
cartridges had no holes . . . they literally converted
mechanical vibrations to their electrical analogs.

One of these products might be ideal for the Breezy application.
Unless your fly with your mouth open to the slipstream,
they'll pick up no ambient or wind nose whatsoever.

http://tinyurl.com/yclr8szt



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



72c1c8a.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  94.53 KB
 Viewed:  501 Time(s)

72c1c8a.jpg


Back to top
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

On 9/8/2017 7:17 PM, Jeff Point wrote:
Quote:


Listers,

My new Breezy is a high noise aircraft, to put it mildly.  I have good
a good ANR headset to control the noise but I'm struggling with the
intercom (MGL V6) and even at the highest VOX settings, the wind noise
overpowers the intercom squelch, resulting in a near-continuous open
intercom.

To address this, I'm considering adding a momentary switch into the
microphone wiring to act as a sort of manual squelch/ PTT for the
intercom.  It will still be noisy, but will only while talking with
the switch activated.  Taken a step further, I might use a DPDT
mom-off-mom type switch so that one position enables the mic
(intercom) and the other enables the mic and the radio PTT (transmit.)

Has anyone implemented such a design as a way of dealing with a high
noise situation?  Is there any reason why this idea wouldn't work?

Thanks

Jeff Point

Milwaukee
Probably not what you want to hear (pardon the pun), but if the noise is

bad enough to always break squelch, then all you'll accomplish is
silencing the noise between uses. The intercom and transmit functions
will still be useless. Might as well get a receive-only scanner radio &
ditch the intercom.

Any way to keep the wind off the mic? That's likely the problem; not
overall noise. If not, extreme measures could be a throat mic.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

Oregon Aero sells a mic cover for use in open cockpit ac. They claim it helps. PS Engineerig also recomends it. I have not used/needed it so I can't speak to efficiency but it a cheep possible fix.

On Sep 8, 2017 18:30, "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>

On 9/8/2017 7:17 PM, Jeff Point wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)>

Listers,

My new Breezy is a high noise aircraft, to put it mildly.  I have good a good ANR headset to control the noise but I'm struggling with the intercom (MGL V6) and even at the highest VOX settings, the wind noise overpowers the intercom squelch, resulting in a near-continuous open intercom.

To address this, I'm considering adding a momentary switch into the microphone wiring to act as a sort of manual squelch/ PTT for the intercom.  It will still be noisy, but will only while talking with the switch activated.  Taken a step further, I might use a DPDT mom-off-mom type switch so that one position enables the mic (intercom) and the other enables the mic and the radio PTT (transmit.)

Has anyone implemented such a design as a way of dealing with a high noise situation?  Is there any reason why this idea wouldn't work?

Thanks

Jeff Point

Milwaukee
Probably not what you want to hear (pardon the pun), but if the noise is bad enough to always break squelch, then all you'll accomplish is silencing the noise between uses. The intercom and transmit functions will still be useless. Might as well get a receive-only scanner radio & ditch the intercom.

Any way to keep the wind off the mic? That's likely the problem; not overall noise. If not, extreme measures could be a throat mic.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

====================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

I contacted the manufacturer of the headset I use, describing a similar
problem with the rear-seat position in my Citabria when I fly with the
window open for ventilation. He suggested a leather "sleeve" over the
mike, with three small holes (the size of a pencil lead) on the side of
the mike that touches your lips. You put the sleeve on over the foam
cover, and that eliminates a LOT of the wind noise that is breaking the
squelch.

Good luck!

Jim Parker


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

Actually that's really all I'm trying to do. The transmit quality is acceptable (scratchy but readable as reported by tower.) It's just that the noise from the constantly open mic on the intercom is annoying.

I do have the Oregon Aero mic muff and that hasn't fixed it. Those help in a high-noise environment (like my RV-6) but are overpowered in an extreme noise environment like the Breezy.

Jeff

---- Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
Probably not what you want to hear (pardon the pun), but if the noise is
bad enough to always break squelch, then all you'll accomplish is
silencing the noise between uses. The intercom and transmit functions
will still be useless. Might as well get a receive-only scanner radio &
ditch the intercom.

Any way to keep the wind off the mic? That's likely the problem; not
overall noise. If not, extreme measures could be a throat mic.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus






- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

The ANR works fine- this is definitely an open mic caused by wind noise.

What would be the advantage of grounding the mic voltage vs. just opening it up completely? It's s horse apiece to wire it either way.

Jeff

---- Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:


Are you certain there are no issues with the wind noise interfering with the ANR and making it more noisy?

That could sound like an open mic, possibly.


I invite others to comment on this, but I believe you could just ground the mic terminal to silence it. There is mic bias voltage on that pin that powers the microphone capsule, but it should run through enough resistance inside the radio that this should be no problem.

If that makes you uncomfortable, shorting it through a capacitor should be fine as well. In that case, you’d want a 1M resistor across the shorting switch to keep the capacitor charged to prevent a big POP when the switch is thrown.

You could get some version of that done with a DPDT like you described.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:32 am    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

That's an interesting idea, and for the price I will pick one up to play with it. Many of them also have foam earplug-type earphones ala Clarity Aloft... and are designed to fit under helmets anyway... now if I can just get the impedances to match up.
Jeff

On 9/8/17 8:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:

One of these products might be ideal for the Breezy application.
Unless your fly with your mouth open to the slipstream,
they'll pick up no ambient or wind nose whatsoever.

http://tinyurl.com/yclr8szt



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
stein(at)steinair.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:00 am    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

The 'best' solution is to get a high noise intercom like the PS Engineering PM1200 or similar (that we often use in P-51's or B-25's, and other open cockpit aircraft) or other slightly better intercom that has a PTT (Push to Talk) that actually has two PTT switches (one for intercom PTT and the other for transmit PTT) as well as having a very powerful squelch circuit meant for high noise enviornments.

The MGL would not be my first choice...

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1297

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

I made a mic cover from a battery terminal cover and some porous foam. Helped with the wind noise in my trike.

Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com (stein(at)steinair.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com (stein(at)steinair.com)>

The 'best' solution is to get a high noise intercom like the PS Engineering PM1200 or similar (that we often use in P-51's or B-25's, and other open cockpit aircraft) or other slightly better intercom that has a PTT (Push to Talk) that actually has two PTT switches (one for intercom PTT and the other for transmit PTT) as well as having a very powerful squelch circuit meant for high noise enviornments.

The MGL would not be my first choice...

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein


--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



Mic_cover.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  204.98 KB
 Viewed:  487 Time(s)

Mic_cover.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jpoint(at)wi.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

That is clever, I'll try that. I've also been experimenting with using a tablespoon measuring spoon as a wind shield. The two together might be a winner.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I made a mic cover from a battery terminal cover and some porous foam. Helped with the wind noise in my trike.

Rick Girard

>


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

Jeff, early Extra 300s had an intercom system like you describe. The throttle of both seats had a momentary push button to open the mike for intercom and the stick had the radio PTT. That worked well for the pilot but not so well for inexperienced pax who took a while to understand the need to press the button on the throttle. Like Stein suggested I would install a good I intercom first (and I would go with his recommendation, he has some experience in this field...) before going down the intercom button route. Peter 

On 10 Sep 2017 3:34 p.m., "Jeff Point" <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)>

That is clever, I'll try that. I've also been experimenting with using a tablespoon measuring spoon as a wind shield. The two together might be a winner.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> I made a mic cover from a battery terminal cover and some porous foam. Helped with the wind noise in my trike.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>>


====================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
n233ee(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Manual intercom PTT Reply with quote

Suggest contacting Sigtronics who designed an acceptable headset & intercom for their T6.  They also added a 'glove' over the mic with a very small hole.  It worked great in our Mustang II for years.
On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com (peter(at)sportingaero.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Jeff, early Extra 300s had an intercom system like you describe. The throttle of both seats had a momentary push button to open the mike for intercom and the stick had the radio PTT. That worked well for the pilot but not so well for inexperienced pax who took a while to understand the need to press the button on the throttle. Like Stein suggested I would install a good I intercom first (and I would go with his recommendation, he has some experience in this field...) before going down the intercom button route. Peter 

On 10 Sep 2017 3:34 p.m., "Jeff Point" <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint(at)wi.rr.com (jpoint(at)wi.rr.com)>

That is clever, I'll try that. I've also been experimenting with using a tablespoon measuring spoon as a wind shield. The two together might be a winner.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> I made a mic cover from a battery terminal cover and some porous foam. Helped with the wind noise in my trike.
>
> Rick Girard
>
>>


===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========







- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group