Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jonathanmilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 207
Location: aberdeen

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

I'm reliably informed that the full trigear speed kit, in accurate flight tests before and after installation and flown level at Wide Open Throttle in calm air, showed a full 10 knot speed gain. I'm also informed that the same test performed at 65% power (4800 rpm, 26") gives about a 5 knot gain.

But I would prefer to fit only the flap and fuselage hinge fairings, partly because they weigh altogether approx. 1 kg while the full speed kit weighs 4.1 kg (9 lbs). Presumably the flap hinge fairings must give some drag reduction benefit, or else why would they be included in the kit?

Please would you tell me from your own experience how much speed is to be gained in the cruise with only flap/fuselage hinge fairings fitted. Thanks.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 447

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Quote:
On Oct 11, 2017, at 5:16 PM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>I'm reliably informed that the full trigear speed kit, in accurate flight tests before and after installation and flown level at Wide Open Throttle in calm air, showed a full 10 knot speed gain. I'm also informed that the same test performed at 65% power (4800 rpm, 26") gives about a 5 knot gain.But I would prefer to fit only the flap and fuselage hinge fairings, partly because they weigh altogether approx. 1 kg while the full speed kit weighs 4.1 kg (9 lbs).

With the assumption that the wheel spats are part of “the full trigger speed kit”, irrespective of the weight implications, I would venture that they are the major source of the speed gain…

When you refer to “flap and fuselage hinge fairings”…(since the fuselage fairings are part of the flap mechanism)…I’m not sure if you’re referring to both the fairings on the fuselage and the fairings on the wings...the frontal area of the flap hinge wing fairings makes me suspect of any claimed benefit from their installation…whereas the fuselage hinge fairings also function to close holes in the fuselage...

- just the uninformed opinions of a would-be mono-driver…

Fred


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jonathanmilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 207
Location: aberdeen

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

My uneducated guess is that all the hinge fairings serve to smooth airflow, particularly the outboard hinges which I'm told are a significant drag source.

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zwakie



Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Bud has a created a number of really informative articles in PDF format on various subjects, one of them is about drag reduction specifically and contains good information on the speed kit as well, see: http://customflightcreations.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/drag103.pdf

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jonathanmilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 207
Location: aberdeen

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Thanks Zwakie. I have seen and read this before, but now I'm saving it for future reference. I particularly like this quote from Bud: "The flap brackets (especially the outers) are a huge drag source. So is the gear. Gear drag is interesting. The legs and brake callipers actually produce more drag than the tyres and wheels."

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zwakie



Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

jonathanmilbank wrote:
I particularly like this quote from Bud: "The flap brackets (especially the outers) are a huge drag source. So is the gear. Gear drag is interesting. The legs and brake callipers actually produce more drag than the tyres and wheels."

Exactly the two things I thought would be of interest to you and why I posted the link (pure luck that I had read this article again earlier this week, otherwise I would not have thought of it Wink )

Another interesting remark was the drag caused by the brakes-part of the wheel-assembly, which makes me think if it would be possible/feasible/worthwhile to develop some sort of aerodynamic faring just for that part instead of having the complete bulky wheel pants (just thinking aloud here...)


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.

What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain

Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
jonathanmilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 207
Location: aberdeen

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Hi Craig. An interesting thought which might have some benefit. Who knows? But the modification approval and associated flight testing costs are way beyond anything I'd want to contemplate. Your Europa will give you immense enjoyment with great performance in its standard form.

An old friend and acknowledged expert gave me some very good advice: "Whenever you might contemplate fitting some gadget to your fine creation, first borrow an example and set it down on a bench. If it doesn't immediately float upwards, then it's too heavy!"


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

An old friend and acknowledged expert gave me some very good advice:
"Whenever you might contemplate fitting some gadget to your fine creation,
first borrow an example and set it down on a bench. If it doesn't
immediately float upwards, then it's too heavy!"
Sounds a bit like the old race car motto. " If it breaks its too light, If
it doesn't break it's too heavy"

Regards
Craig

Do Not Archive


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Duncan McFadyean



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdf
which applies to swept wings.
Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed?
Duncan McF.

[quote] ----Original Message----
From: craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Date: 14/10/2017 06:08
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

--> Europa-List message posted by: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>

While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.

What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain

Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

My thoughts    were to blend from near the front of the wing, around the flap hinge and blend back out near the back edge of the flap,
which as you say would in effect fence the outer edge of the flap when the flaps are lowered, as well as “hopefully” a meaningful
reduction in drag on that hinge.

Regards
craig

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, 15 October 2017 9:19 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only


Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdf

which applies to swept wings.

Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed?



Duncan McF.
[quote]
----Original Message----
From: craigb(at)onthenet.com.au (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au)
Date: 14/10/2017 06:08
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

--> Europa-List message posted by: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au)>

While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.

What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain

Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Duncan McFadyean



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:23 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

[quote][quote]Maybe the attached would qualify as a fence.
I made these years ago but never got around to fitting or flying them, not believing that three 1/8" flap hinge plates edge-on to the wind would create more drag than the greatly additional skin and frontal areas of the fairing (although it has better form, with prospect of pressure recovery).
Maybe one day!


Duncan McF.


[quote] ----Original Message----
From: ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net
Date: 15/10/2017 12:18
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only


Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdf
which applies to swept wings.
Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed?
Duncan McF.

[quote] ----Original Message----
From: craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Date: 14/10/2017 06:08
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

--> Europa-List message posted by: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>

While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.

What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain

Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



Flap_hinge_fairing_re.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  1.2 MB
 Viewed:  663 Time(s)

Flap_hinge_fairing_re.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:08 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Yes that is sort of what I was thinking, but a bit longer towards the L/E to really blend it nicely.  As for the frontal area, or Flat plate area, I think I read (tried to find it again but cant)
That the FPA for drag is any surface between zero and approximately 45 degrees to the air flow, so any surface blended at an angle greater than 45 will have little to no induced form drag.
And the amount of skin drag as compared to the whole skin of the A/C would be so small as to not be of any real concern I would think, again I could be wrong. Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap when the flaps are up.

If anyone knows the actual figures for the FPA I would like to know

Regards
craig

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 9:19 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
[quote][quote]
Maybe the attached would qualify as a fence.

I made these years ago but never got around to fitting or flying them, not believing that three 1/8" flap hinge plates edge-on to the wind would create more drag than the greatly additional skin and frontal areas of the fairing (although it has better form, with prospect of pressure recovery).

Maybe one day!





Duncan McF.
[quote]
----Original Message----
From: ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net (ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net)
Date: 15/10/2017 12:18
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdf

which applies to swept wings.

Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed?



Duncan McF.
[quote]
----Original Message----
From: craigb(at)onthenet.com.au (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au)
Date: 14/10/2017 06:08
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

--> Europa-List message posted by: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au)>

While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.

What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain

Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Jonathan,
I have had a little better performance gain with proper attention to detail around the gear, engine cowl ducting, and of course the flap brackets.

You will find that it takes as long to do a proper speed kit and transitions as it does to fill and sand the entire fuselage. There is a lot of detail making speed kit transitions properly, making them light, properly secured, looking good, easy open to do periodic maintenance, and finally, getting some speed out of it.

I got 17 Knots at max continuous and 10 overall at low cruise. So you are about right in your estimates.

Ive attached my previous comments and techniques for ways to do transitions. I do not recommend tape and 5 minute glues to fasten a gear speed kit. Without proper gear leg support and the transitions, the speed gains are less than inspiring.

As for the wing covers. I prefer a fully enclosed wing speed cover, but alas, you have to take even more time to make it easily and quickly removable to allow for inspection and maintenance. The Europa style wing covers are OK as is.

As for putting them in the kit as standard, most manufacturers make this an option as the old time Cessna owners all know that wheel pants are only mud flaps, so why bother. Cirrus and other fixed gear speed freaks all know that is not true.

Attached are some things Ive written on speed kit installation and techniques for my customers installations.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 8:16:49 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only


--> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>

I'm reliably informed that the full trigear speed kit, in accurate flight tests before and after installation and flown level at Wide Open Throttle in calm air, showed a full 10 knot speed gain. I'm also informed that the same test performed at 65% power (4800 rpm, 26") gives about a 5 knot gain.

But I would prefer to fit only the flap and fuselage hinge fairings, partly because they weigh altogether approx. 1 kg while the full speed kit weighs 4.1 kg (9 lbs). Presumably the flap hinge fairings must give some drag reduction benefit, or else why would they be included in the kit?

Please would you tell me from your own experience how much speed is to be gained in the cruise with only flap/fuselage hinge fairings fitted. Thanks.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473486#473486






===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



Techniques_for_increasing_Europa_Performance.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Techniques_for_increasing_Europa_Performance.pdf
 Filesize:  735.79 KB
 Downloaded:  27 Time(s)


Custom_Flight_Speed_Kit_Installation_2016.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Custom_Flight_Speed_Kit_Installation_2016.pdf
 Filesize:  1.58 MB
 Downloaded:  28 Time(s)

Back to top
jonathanmilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 207
Location: aberdeen

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Hello Bud,

At the moment my thoughts have become closely focused on my wife, who is undergoing chemotherapy and suffering many more complications than normally occur. So I'm putting aircraft plans and modifications on the back burner at least until next spring.

What you say about the amount of time which needs to be devoted to aerodynamic improvements, confirms my suspicions. Apart from that I'm asking myself "Do I really need all that work and expenditure to gain a few knots, when 99% of my flying is within a 50 mile radius?"

Many thanks for taking the time to make your considered reply.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

Pay attention to your wife and family. Airplanes are just stuff in comparison for sure.

On the time it takes, keep in mind that I spent 40 hours on a map case in the center console. Im way over the top on detail. Detail takes time. Aerodynamically, I prefer to do aerodynamic detail (fairings & covers) to be easily maintainable as well as efficient, which takes time and planning. To be honest, pants and gear leg fairings can be installed and small fillets made and out the door in a week (mostly cure time). Painting, another few days if you are good (Im not). The stock pants just need a lot of screws or they look pretty wonky, and all those screws mean time to take apart to service/inspect so it doesnt get done.

My prayers are with a full recovery for your wife.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 2:11:41 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only


--> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>

Hello Bud,

At the moment my thoughts have become closely focused on my wife, who is undergoing chemotherapy and suffering many more complications than normally occur. So I'm putting aircraft plans and modifications on the back burner at least until next spring.

What you say about the amount of time which needs to be devoted to aerodynamic improvements, confirms my suspicions. Apart from that I'm asking myself "Do I really need all that work and expenditure to gain a few knots, when 99% of my flying is within a 50 mile radius?"

Many thanks for taking the time to make your considered reply.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=474584#474584






===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

For those who don't know who Klaus Savier is, he races a Varieze and is a fanatic when it comes to drag. For the longest time Klaus was the man to beat.
I remember going to one of his presentations and looking at his aircraft. I don't recall if it was the hinge on the canard, or the stakes on the rear wing but I was surprised that there was no fairing.  He had rounded the front LE of the bracket and that was all.
Knowing Klaus, if he thought he could get 1/10 of a knot gain he would put a fairing in it.
From this I concluded with the exception of the outrigger that perhaps there is little value in the fairing the flap hinges on the Europa.
Just my observation as a lost soul wanting around the Oshkosh airshow.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Duncan McFadyean



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Reply with quote

[quote][quote]<<...Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap when the flaps are up...>>
Something like the attached? Which also covers the attach bracket/bolts and the pivot bolt.
Duncan McF.



[quote] ----Original Message----
From: craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Date: 07/11/2017 11:04
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only


Yes that is sort of what I was thinking, but a bit longer towards the L/E to really blend it nicely. As for the frontal area, or Flat plate area, I think I read (tried to find it again but cant)
That the FPA for drag is any surface between zero and approximately 45 degrees to the air flow, so any surface blended at an angle greater than 45 will have little to no induced form drag.
And the amount of skin drag as compared to the whole skin of the A/C would be so small as to not be of any real concern I would think, again I could be wrong. Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap when the flaps are up.

If anyone knows the actual figures for the FPA I would like to know

Regards
craig

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 9:19 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
[quote][quote]
Maybe the attached would qualify as a fence.

I made these years ago but never got around to fitting or flying them, not believing that three 1/8" flap hinge plates edge-on to the wind would create more drag than the greatly additional skin and frontal areas of the fairing (although it has better form, with prospect of pressure recovery).

Maybe one day!





Duncan McF.
[quote]
----Original Message----
From: ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net (ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net)
Date: 15/10/2017 12:18
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdf

which applies to swept wings.

Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed?



Duncan McF.
[quote]
----Original Message----
From: craigb(at)onthenet.com.au (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au)
Date: 14/10/2017 06:08
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subj: RE: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only

--> Europa-List message posted by: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au)>

While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.

What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain

Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



Mid_flap_hinge_fairing_a.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  2.72 MB
 Viewed:  494 Time(s)

Mid_flap_hinge_fairing_a.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group