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Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help

 
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Vlodek9



Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

Hello all

I’m looking for suggestions as to what materials I should use regarding delimitation and cracking on the Europa main wing and fuselage.

With so many advancements in available materials, I feel overwhelmed in making my purchase decisions. Further more, I have no practical experience, only theoretical based on what I have read and watched on the internet.

Issues:
Fiberglass delaminate spots on main wing (core not effected).
Filler/bondo (dry micro??) delaminate spots on main wing.
Hairline cracks (spiderweb) on fuselage and cowl

So with this in mind, the following list is what I think I need to purchase but need suggestions on.

1. Which resin should I use:
a. Epoxy, polyester, laminating, gel coat, etc

2. Faring compound for pits and surface shaping
a. Bondo, filler, dry micro, etc

*Please recommend brand names and type of product so I can track it down and purchase.

Finally, I know that the Europa uses unidirectional and bidirectional cloth, but for some reason I can’t seem to locate what thickness I should get.

Again, I am a novice at this so any advice as to what materials I should buy and where, would be very appreciated.

Thank you


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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

You don't say whether you are building or its been completed a while, are you sure it's not a paint or filler issue ? The fuselage is fibre either side of foam so I'm not sure how you would see delamination there.

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_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk
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Duncan McFadyean



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

I've had the same issue with business jets in that area too ((at)4000', presumably out of Oxford). I wish I could be confident that the crew were looking out of the window as they approach from behind.
Next time, call a DOTH!
Duncan McF
do not archive


Quote:
----Original Message----
From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Date: 18/11/2017 07:26
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help

--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

You don't say whether you are building or its been completed a while, are you sure it's not a paint or filler issue ? The fuselage is fibre either side of foam so I'm not sure how you would see delamination there.

--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3
325 hours &amp; 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

There isn't a simple answer to this. If you are a beginner to fibreglass and building a Europa, you really need an expert to look at the problem and to guide you, otherwise you risk doing unnecessary work and possibly serious damage. Where are you. The Europa Club may be able to put you in touch with a local builder or expert. Otherwise I would suggest looking for a firm which repairs gliders, as they should have the relevant expertise.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ (.& Chairman of Europa club)


On 2017-11-18 00:30, Vlodek9 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Vlodek9" <rv9a2000(at)gmail.com (rv9a2000(at)gmail.com)>

Hello all

I&euro;&trade;m looking for suggestions as to what materials I should use regarding delimitation and cracking on the Europa main wing and fuselage.

With so many advancements in available materials, I feel overwhelmed in making my purchase decisions. Further more, I have no practical experience, only theoretical based on what I have read and watched on the internet.

Issues:
Fiberglass delaminate spots on main wing (core not effected).
Filler/bondo (dry micro??) delaminate spots on main wing.
Hairline cracks (spiderweb) on fuselage and cowl

So with this in mind, the following list is what I think I need to purchase but need suggestions on.
&euro;1. Which resin should I use:
a. Epoxy, polyester, laminating, gel coat, etc

2. Faring compound for pits and surface shaping
a. Bondo, filler, dry micro, etc

*Please recommend brand names and type of product so I can track it down and purchase.

Finally, I know that the Europa uses unidirectional and bidirectional cloth, but for some reason I can&euro;&trade;t seem to locate what thickness I should get.

Again, I am a novice at this so any advice as to what materials I should buy and where, would be very appreciated.

Thank you


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Vlodek9



Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

graeme bird wrote:
You don't say whether you are building or its been completed a while, are you sure it's not a paint or filler issue ? The fuselage is fibre either side of foam so I'm not sure how you would see delimitation there.


Thank you for your reply. The Europa XS was completed and got its airworthiness certificate in 2001, I bought it 2 months ago or so as a third owner. It is fully operational and has been flying. So far, most of the areas in question seem like it is a filler/paint problem but I have not opened all of the bubbles yet since I'm addressing other issues. Still, in a week or so, I will be focusing 100% on all of the cracks and bubbles throughout the aircraft (mostly cosmetic based on appearance). Hopefully they are all filler/paint issues but I figured I'd ask about everything so I can further my knowledge and research. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst kind of thing.

Thanks


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Vlodek9



Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

I'm attaching a pic of a snapped off pice of what I think is the filler. I do believe that this is the case in most if not all of the bubbles that are on the wing.

I want to thank everyone that replied so far. You guys gave me allot to think about and yes, depending on what I find once I open all the bubbles, I may decide to take it to a professional.

However, I am still interested in what materials (filler, resin, etc) are suggested for working with as it pertains to the Europa. I would like to learn about this stuff and unfortunately the best way I learn is hands on and by making mistakes. Not on the airplane in this case, but practicing on the "bench".

So if anyone does have experience with a certain resin, filler, etc that he/she would recommend, please let me know the brand/type/manufactures and I'll start my research/learning.

Thanks


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

If you join the europa club (via the website www.theeuropaclub.org ) you can access the build manuals which will give you standard materials and methods, and also all the technical articles in the Europa Flyer magazines which will no doubt cover various ways people have chosen to do the painting and filling and problems found. How to deal with a paint finish and its problems is a different matter, without someone being able to tell you what paint was used. Although there was a standard filler supplied with the Europa kit, choice of paint was left up to the builder.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ


On 2017-11-18 16:08, Vlodek9 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Vlodek9" <rv9a2000(at)gmail.com (rv9a2000(at)gmail.com)>
graeme bird wrote:You don't say whether you are building or its been completed a while, are you sure it's not a paint or filler issue ? The fuselage is fibre either side of foam so I'm not sure how you would see delimitation there.Thank you for your reply. The Europa XS was completed and got its airworthiness certificate in 2001, I bought it 2 months ago or so as a third owner. It is fully operational and has been flying. So far, most of the areas in question seem like it is a filler/paint problem but I have not opened all of the bubbles yet since I'm addressing other issues. Still, in a week or so, I will be focusing 100% on all of the cracks and bubbles throughout the aircraft (mostly cosmetic based on appearance). Hopefully they are all filler/paint issues but I figured I'd ask about everything so I can further my knowledge and research. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst kind of thing.

Thanks


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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 631

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

As David Joyce suggested, the factory manuals are available on line, either at the Europa Club website or the factory website. Chapter 1 contains Europa Technical College which is an introduction to working with composite materials, identification of the materials used in the kit and a project to use for experience. The epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth supplied with the kit have been called out by Aircraft Spruce part numbers in the thread by Mike Duane. I’ve not purchased Expancel but I imagine the factory has it available and there are probably similar materials available from West Systems. Chapter 36 has instructions on finishing, not just painting but sanding, smoothing and contouring.

I strongly suggest you seek out assistance. Like brain surgery, you can do it by yourself, but some guidance may produce better results, faster and easier! I’m pretty sure you identified yourself a few weeks ago on this forum and you are located near Phoenix, AZ. I see there are four EAA chapters in the area and all offer Technical Counselors. I think there is an airplane kit completion business near you (Phoenix Composites?) that has helped others with Europa kits and could be a good resource. Bud Yerly, Custom Flight Creations also offers assistance. There are Europa owners and builders near you too. Contact me (use the message feature of this forum) if you would like me to ask one of them to contact you.

Jim Butcher
Europa Club US Rep


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kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

The areas you mentioned of the fuselage, that have a web-like appearance could be caused by shrinking paint/filler, or in the worst case, by impact damage to the sandwich leading to the collapse of the thin foam core.
For this case, there are instructions in the mail list somewhere.

A simple and effective way to look through it is to do just that, with a strong (cool) light placed on the inside of the fuselage.

Enjoy,
Alex Kaarsberg

Quote:
On 18 Nov 2017, at 18:10, Vlodek9 <rv9a2000(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I'm attaching a pic of a snapped off pice of what I think is the filler. I do believe that this is the case in most if not all of the bubbles that are on the wing.

I want to thank everyone that replied so far. You guys gave me allot to think about and yes, depending on what I find once I open all the bubbles, I may decide to take it to a professional.

However, I am still interested in what materials (filler, resin, etc) are suggested for working with as it pertains to the Europa. I would like to learn about this stuff and unfortunately the best way I learn is hands on and by making mistakes. Not on the airplane in this case, but practicing on the "bench".

So if anyone does have experience with a certain resin, filler, etc that he/she would recommend, please let me know the brand/type/manufactures and I'll start my research/learning.

Thanks




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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 631

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

Mike Duane has given you the Aircraft Spruce part numbers for flox and microspheres and both have their place. But read the factory manual and understand the difference of microspheres (Q-Cel) and expancel. They are different materials and have different uses.

Also be aware that the resin to hardener ratio in the manual is not for Aeropoxy. In the UK Ampreg was supplied. In the US Aeropoxy was supplied. Aeropoxy ratio is 100:27 by weight and 3 to 1 by volume.

Jim Butcher


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Vlodek9



Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

OK, quick summery, lets see if I got this right.
The Q-Cel is primarily used as a micro (slurry for filling foam, dry for dings before lay-up). But, it can be used as a final finish.

Expancel can be considered as an alternative or primarily as a final finish only.
(Per CBM1)

SO per CBM 37-3
I would use the Q-Cel (or the 3M Glass) to fill in any dips/dents on the surface of the cloth. Then sand it down to a point where I see the fiberglass cloth/weave and create a smooth even surface all the way across.

Only then I would use thermoplastic polymer microsphe res (NOT GLASS) or aka Expancel as the final finishing filler. Assuming that I'm not using Q-Cel as the final filler.

Assuming that my above understanding is correct and I would purchase the 3M Glass Bubble from Aircraft Spruce, then I also have to purchase the Expancel (or other thermoplastic polymer microspheres) as the final filler before paint. Based on the fact that the 3M is glass.

Please confirm if my understanding is correct.

One other thing that Im curious about. Per the attached pic of the pice I snapped off, I concluded that in this case, the bond between the cloth and filler has failed. However, based on what I have read so far, I'm a bit taken back by the thickness of the filler that snapped off. It is way thicker than what is suggested in the manual, as I read it.

Do you guys agree or is that normal?


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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 631

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

Your summary of CBM1 is correct.

While CBM page 1-9 indicates you can use Q-Cel for final finishing, it is not preferred. It is typically used on foam, prior to layup of fiberglass cloth. The second sentence of the last paragraph on page 37-3 says to use Expancel. Expancel is lighter, more flexible and easier to sand; which is why it is better. You should not need to buy any glass microspheres.

Expancel should be mixed very dry to keep it light. To be consistent, we used the same amount of Expancel to resin in every batch. We used a 10:1 ratio by volume. This is important if you have to go back and refill – if the batches are not consistent, it is difficult to sand evenly as some sections are harder than others (due to more or less epoxy in the mix) so you can get bumps and dips.

It is possible that the filler delaminated because it did not adhere properly to the fiberglass. To prevent that, we used a clean dry cloth (old sock) to rub a very small amount of resin on the fiberglass just before spreading the Expancel.

Yes, the photo you attached shows pretty thick filler. For some reason we did not receive the original post with photos of the damaged areas so we don’t know where that came from. Filler used to blend two areas where one is proud of the other can be somewhat thick, so areas where fairings are glued to the wing near the wing root can have more buildup than other areas. Normally it should not be as thick as the piece in your photo.

Since Expancel may be hard to find in the US, some people have used West System 407 / 410 products or Poly Fiber Superfil. We have not used either, maybe others can comment.

Jim & Heather


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Nigel Graham



Joined: 23 Mar 2017
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Location: Winchester - UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

h&jeuropa wrote:

.......some people have used West System 407 / 410 products or Poly Fiber Superfil. We have not used either, maybe others can comment.

Jim & Heather


I have used Super-Fil with great success.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/superfil.php?clickkey=8866

It's prohibitively expensive - but it bonds well, blocks down predictably, fairs out seamlessly and is exceptionally light.
Pre-warming the application tools (palette knife, straight edge etc.) will ensure that the filler adheres to the substrate and doesn't "curl up" behind.
Would recommend.

Nigel


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Vlodek9



Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

Again, thank you all for the detailed advice on everything. Its good to know that there are other options in regards to the final filer. Please keep the suggestions coming.
In the mean time, I'm doing research on Expancel. One thing that I can not find, or missed in the manual is a more detailed decryption to Expancel, a model number it you will.

Per this web site:
https://expancel.akzonobel.com/lightweight-fillers/expancel-de/

under "lightweight fillers" there are two types of Expancel DE and WE (dry and wet). Under each one of those are even more variations.
Example:
Expancel DE - 551 DE 40 d42, 461 DE 20 d70, 461 DET 40 d25, etc.

Point is, I read the description for both and for the most part understand the difference. However, assuming this company would be willing to sell me some, I'm not confident as to which version (model number) would be best for this application.

Any thoughts?


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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject: Resins, faring compounds, etc, Need help Reply with quote

I’ll second Nigel’s endorsement of Super-Oil…and…recommend that use of it be followed w/ Poly Fiber’s “Smooth Prime”…always a good idea to use sequential products from the same manufacturer to ensure compatibility…f.
Quote:
On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:19 AM, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
I have used Super-Fil with great success.http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/superfil.php?clickkey=8866It's prohibitively expensive - but it bonds well, blocks down predictably, fairs out seamlessly and is exceptionally light.Pre-warming the application tools (palette knife, straight edge etc.) will ensure that the filler adheres to the substrate and doesn't "curl up" behind.Would recommend.Nigel


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