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Quick build verses ready to fly

 
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robpen5557(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

I’m not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine?
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, Texas

Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first!


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lcottrell



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1328
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Your cheapest avenue would be to buy a used Kolb. The firestar's will run about 10K Mark III's16K up. Just be careful and hold out for a good one.Larry
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com (robpen5557(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com (robpen5557(at)gmail.com)>

I’m not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved.  I know nothing about building wings and covering.  So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new.  I know new is really expensive.  I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built.  So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly?   Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine?
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, Texas

Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man.  Landing is the first!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

MkIII in W.Va. just went up on Barnstormers....no engine....8k....Herb

On 12/05/2017 08:48 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:

Quote:
Your cheapest avenue would be to buy a used Kolb. The firestar's will run about 10K Mark III's16K up. Just be careful and hold out for a good one. Larry


On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com (robpen5557(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com (robpen5557(at)gmail.com)>

I’m not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved.  I know nothing about building wings and covering.  So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new.  I know new is really expensive.  I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built.  So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly?   Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine?
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, Texas

Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man.  Landing is the first!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:21 am    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Robert, as a word of encouragement. To my knowledge, none of us were “builders” when we started our projects. One of the nice things about building a Kolb is you don’t need fortune to get started. I’ve built two and I paid for the kits as I needed them. Kolbs take some time to build, but it’s a great experience. They don’t require a lot of special tools. Just time and patience. When they’re complete you end up with a great little real airplane. I’m still flying a Original Firestar (1986) that took me and a buddy almost 2 years to build. Still flies great and I know what I’m flying was well built.
George Helton
Firestar, 1986, 377 Rotax
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, at 9:32 PM, Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I’m not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine?
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, Texas

Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Thanks. You George. That is good to. Know.
Robert

Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first!

Quote:
On Dec 6, 2017, at 6:20 AM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Robert, as a word of encouragement. To my knowledge, none of us were “builders” when we started our projects. One of the nice things about building a Kolb is you don’t need fortune to get started. I’ve built two and I paid for the kits as I needed them. Kolbs take some time to build, but it’s a great experience. They don’t require a lot of special tools. Just time and patience. When they’re complete you end up with a great little real airplane. I’m still flying a Original Firestar (1986) that took me and a buddy almost 2 years to build. Still flies great and I know what I’m flying was well built.
<image1.jpeg>

George Helton
Firestar, 1986, 377 Rotax
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2017, at 9:32 PM, Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I’m not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine?
> Robert Lobdell
> Waskom, Texas
>
> Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first!
====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
>
>
>


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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Even with a quick build you are still going to put in a fairly large amount of time building; and it's going to cost more.

Building my Xtra was a great experience but I would never do it again. You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone. If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go. A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal.


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George Alexander



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Rex Rodebush wrote:
, , , , S N I P , , ,

You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone. If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go. A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal.


Unless you are fortunate enough to find an Experimental - Light Sport Aircraft, (E-LSA). In that case, you can take a 16 hour course, for a few hundred dollars, and do it yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Robert- The single most important thing about building, or doing a re-build, is to have enough room to do it. Very little is needed in terms of tools. Mostly a drill, a rivet gun, and a tape measure. Scissors! Cheap paint brushes! And lots of ventilation when you do the covering. The big thing is to be meticulous, and expect to make mistakes.
Also, are you going ultralight (Part 103), LSA, or a little heavier?
I'd locate some local Kolb owners, so you can see up close what they look like, and how they are built. last I knew, several Kolb builders had great web sites about the building and modifications of their Kolbs. Jack Hart had a great site, for super ultralight Firefly construction.

Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 12/5/17, Robert Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Quick build verses ready to fly
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 9:32 PM


Lobdell <robpen5557(at)gmail.com>

I’m not a builder but I might be able
to do a quick build if it isnt to involved.  I know
nothing about building wings and covering.  So, was
really thinking of used or ready to fly new.  I know
new is really expensive.  I figured even a firefly
would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer
built.  So, can I save a significant amount of money on
the Quick build over the ready to fly?  Or should I
just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new
machine?
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, Texas


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Small but significant correction to that. While you do need the
signature of either the "repairman's certificate" holder or an A&P for
the annual condition inspection, anyone, even a monkey or a random stray
dog, can do any and all maintenance/repairs/modifications. As long as
the dog can make his mark in the log book to sign off the work (or you
can make yours, if you hire the dog), it's legal.

Charlie
(no Holiday Inn last night, but repairing/maintaining/modifying
purchased homebuilts since 1992)

On 12/6/2017 10:11 AM, Rex Rodebush wrote:
Quote:


Even with a quick build you are still going to put in a fairly large amount of time building; and it's going to cost more.

Building my Xtra was a great experience but I would never do it again. You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone. If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go. A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Robert,

First question to ask yourself is what type of flying do you intend to do? That will determine what size of Kolb you will want.

If you want to go the Part 103 route, the Firefly is for you. The factory will do a ready to fly $$$$ (it will be built right and beautiful too). Next step down to $$$ would be the quick build kit. Factory rigged and nearly ready to cover. Then there is the next to lowest cost of the basic kit. Lowest cost is to buy a used aircraft. These two have a wide price range depending on age, hours, condition, etc.

My choice was a quick build Firefly. I had some experience with covering and painting so that was not intimidating to me. Personal reasons for me were:

I like making things but was not too sure about working with aluminum tubing (turns out it is easy)
I didn't want to put in the extra time to make all the parts, I wanted to get flying.
To me the price jump from basic kit to quick build was worth the time savings and peace of mind with factory rigging. But the price jump from quick built to ready to fly was not worth the extra $$ because I knew I could do the cover and paint. And I like doing that kind of stuff.

I had a blast finishing the quick build kit. When I was done I had my own brand new airplane (er, air vehicle - Part 103) that has virtually no regulations on it. If something needs to be done, I don't have to look for someone else to work on it. Smile

If you like to make things and have more time than money, a kit is the way to go.

If you would rather fly than build you have to decide how much you are willing to spend and then pick either a used flyable or a factory ready to fly.

If you are not in a hurry watching the used market will definitely save some cash. When I decided to go with a Firefly there wasn't a used one listed anywhere.

Read through the archives on this list, you will learn a lot of stuff no matter what you decide to do.

If you are interested in seeing what it took to do my quick build, have a look here:

http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/serenity.html

If you get a chance to get to Oshkosh, you can learn all kinds of things in the workshops, including covering. That might help you make a decision about building.

A trailer for storage is almost an afterthought. You can buy new or used that will be almost ready to use. You can build one from the axles up, or do a conversion. I bought a used 30' camper trailer and turned it into a toy hauler for the Firefly. Same formula, skills/time/money.

Stuart


I’m not a builder but I might be able
to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine?
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, Texas


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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1425
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Lots of good information on here, so I have only a little to add. Kolb wing, ailerons, and tail feathers have to be the easiest and simplest aircraft structures yet invented. When I bought my MKIII kit, the only quick build parts were the ribs: pre-made.

Bought two used 36" interior doors, built a 14' long table out of 2x6's with the doors as the tops, and lag bolts in the bottoms of the table legs so I could keep it perfectly level. Made a full length shelf underneath to store stuff. Make yourself a handfull of 1"x 2" wood blocks with holes through them, use phillips head sheet metal screws to screw the blocks to the door over the full size plans that you'll draw out for the tail pieces. Block all the tubes in place, mark, cut to length. Lay them back over the plans between the locator blocks, rivet the gussets on, turn it over, rinse, repeat. Tail is done. Seriously, it really is that easy.

Wings? Slide the ribs onto that big spar with everything laying on that long table. Measure, adjust, square it up, screw your little blocks down to keep the ribs in position, secure the leading & trailing edges tight in place with bungee straps. If the table is flat the wing will not be twisted. Start drilling holes and sticking in the clecoes. (Man's best friend) Started working on the first wing on my first day off, both of them were assembled when I went back to work.

I was still working a 40 hour week when the MKIII kit arrived, 3 months later it was on the gear in the driveway and several friends were helping me rig it so we could drill the holes for the main spar clevis pins, and I'm not any better of a builder than average. (I did have prior home building experience) Took another 18 months to complete, but that's always the case: the last 10% of building the airplane takes 90% of your time.

Do you like making stuff and are you handy with tools? Get a kit. Are you OCD and a perfectionist? Get something already built and tweak it, otherwise you'll spend years building when you could be flying.


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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1298

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Rex, You do not have to be an AI to do an annual on an experimental amateur built aircraft, all it takes is an A & P ticket. You don't have to have ANY ticket at all to modify, maintain, or repair an EAB, anyone can. Don't know if this will change your thinking on building vs. buying but you at least have the correct information.

Rick GIrard
Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

Even with a quick build you are still going to put in a fairly large amount of time building; and it's going to cost more.

Building my Xtra was a great experience but I would never do it again.  You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone.  If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go.  A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal.




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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Rick,

My understanding was that for an EAB the only people that can sign off on the yearly inspection or 'annual" was the original builder (with a repairman certificate) or an A&P. Am I wrong?

Rex


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Radegast



Joined: 06 Aug 2016
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

If you can register it as an ELSA, then you can take a 16 hour course and do your own condition inspections. 

From: Rex Rodebush (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 11:29 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly


--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com>

Rick,

My understanding was that for an EAB the only people that can sign off on the yearly inspection or 'annual" was the original builder (with a repairman certificate) or an A&P.  Am I wrong?

Rex




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George Alexander



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 223
Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

Radegast wrote:
If you can register it as an ELSA, then you can take a 16 hour course and do your own condition inspections. 
, S , N , I , P ,



My understanding of ELSA:

Is one of three kinds:

    Previously unregistered "ultralight-like" vehicle that meets LSA specifications. These aircraft were required to be registered before January 31, 2008. However, the FAA issued exemptions which allowed the certification deadline to be extended to January 31, 2010 for any "ultralights" that held FAR103 Exemptions for training. The January 31, 2010 deadline is now past, so no other aircraft (ultralights / experimentals) will be certificated under this provision.

    A kit version of an S-LSA. Note that the January 31, 2008 deadline does not apply here.

    An S-LSA the owner elects to convert to E-LSA so he/she can make modifications & perform maintenance. Note that the January 31, 2008 deadline does not apply here.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Quick build verses ready to fly Reply with quote

To my understanding you are correct.   And better referred to as a condition inspection.

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On Dec 7, 2017 11:29 AM, "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

Rick,

My understanding was that for an EAB the only people that can sign off on the yearly inspection or 'annual" was the original builder (with a repairman certificate) or an A&P.  Am I wrong?

Rex




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- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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