Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at FL20

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at FL20 Reply with quote

First paragraph and some changes went unsent for some reason, probably because I was late for supper and hit send instead of save. Extra info added below.
Bud
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 6:37 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at FL200?


Roland,
12AY has a trigear speed kit, has a fairly smooth finish, a stock 914 early version with the old TCU (at the time), no intercooler or modifications. Equipped with OAT, Fuel Flow, Fuel pressure, MP, EGT and the standard pressure and temp instruments, I am pretty sure of the instrumentation and I know that my TCU was showing some Temp cutback due to the high OAT (it was 5C at 18K).  My TCU at the time was the early 4.3 and my Temp sensor in the Airbox was the old style. Sea level max MP was 34. Prop pitch was set at fine of 5650 at sea level. Course pitch was 30 degrees and one could dive at Vne and the prop would hold 5000 or cruise at max speed limit. The normal check on tests for me is a 1000 MSL check at 5500 RPM. My 914 with the warp drive blades on my Airmaster would do 137 KIAS with the old TCU. Note, I upgraded my TCU and put on two new carbs in 2016 and have been happy with the balance, TCU ops and the fact it is easier to monitor the TCU and engine performance with a laptop.

First on the prop:

Any club of a prop blade on a Europa with a 914 will go to 20,000 and hold altitude at 5000 RPM. Even at very high OATs I tested at in Florida in July of 2015.

Back with my old TCU and carbs with some carb problems I did the following with a 64 inch Warp Drive on an Airmaster:
At my 100% stop at 31 inches and 5500 RPM I indicated at 18K 118KIAS and about 160 KTAS with a warp drive FF 6.7.
Pulled back to 5000 RPM and 28 inches I indicated 105 at 140KTAS FF in the 6.2 range.
Fuel flows you give are suspect. The fact you have no Fuel Pressure, OAT and MP reported, I believe you should make sure your engine is doing as advertised. If you have no speed kit, that may be a bit of a problems as the Europa trigear without a well done speed kit is a dog.

If I can maintain 100 KIAS up to 18K with 4800 and 28 inches, (I’ve done it a few times loafing around) I suspect your plane should also. The Whirlwind and Sensenich blades are better than the Warp Drives but as I said above, any club of a prop can do 20,000 and stay above 100 KIAS even that high... Eric Trombley has a 60 inch Warp Drive blade on his mono and can easily cruise that high.

Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

[img]cid:image002.png(at)01D3DA6C.F75CE5E0[/img]
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 8:44:09 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at FL200?



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>

Hi Europa Folks,

maybe some of you (especially in the US?) with a Rotax 914-powered Trigear can help me evaluate the high altitude performance of my bird.

It is an XS TG 914 (no Intercooler) with Airmaster CS-prop. On two flights yesterday (DA around 20.000 ft - ISA+10°C) at a mass of around 560kg (1235lbs) my Europa did 105KIAS at WOT and 5500RPM (I have no MP-gauge). Although still climbing with around 500FPM at 75KIAS I instantly loose altitude when transiting to Level flight and handling feels quite a bit "spongy".

Erich Trombley posted a picture of his EFIS schowing 126KIAS with his Mono N28ET at a DA of 19500ft at 5310RPM.

The fuel consumption up there was only about 21 l/h (5,5 GPH), so that my assumption is simply, that the 914 can't deliver the appropriate power for the heavier and more draggy Trigear for better performance.

At FL100 at MCP and a FF of 26 l/h (7 GPH) I see 130KIAS.

Any idea what to expect up there at FL200?

Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914




Read this topic online here:

https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D479436%23479436&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=gpGRG4aEL2zXsRlT77nDSDY%2Fjnd4u3QfOjxo4pgCXV4%3D&reserved=0






===========
st Email Forum -
ook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=4%2B1IqH8Sy%2BWEwJcqzl4bTRkm6Fjf3631cP79VDvdQL0%3D&reserved=0"> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=4%2B1IqH8Sy%2BWEwJcqzl4bTRkm6Fjf3631cP79VDvdQL0%3D&reserved=0
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=0O2x%2B83XeLc7iuSa8BWL4cQcs4O5hpTe8g5LySSrNtg%3D&reserved=0"> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=0O2x%2B83XeLc7iuSa8BWL4cQcs4O5hpTe8g5LySSrNtg%3D&reserved=0
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
ook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=U5SQNc6EZJihzZTot0T%2FcjBejEuYWPEy3miXhi%2FcklA%3D&reserved=0"> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=U5SQNc6EZJihzZTot0T%2FcjBejEuYWPEy3miXhi%2FcklA%3D&reserved=0
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p;   -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
ook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=oRiVmAMiEtkRdlTB6TG8q%2BaoPGFBqHURB93A1C2%2FJug%3D&reserved=0"> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d46b82e899648077f4908d5a5f3c5fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636597388767937843&sdata=oRiVmAMiEtkRdlTB6TG8q%2BaoPGFBqHURB93A1C2%2FJug%3D&reserved=0
===========


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



6077F2F8A02240D4B50DA5E062E058BD.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  158 Bytes
 Viewed:  3235 Time(s)

6077F2F8A02240D4B50DA5E062E058BD.png


Back to top
Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at Reply with quote

Hello Bud - and thank you for the Evaluation with 12AY!

These figures show in my opinion, that my Europa performs quite okay (I also have the speed kit, however I guess my bird is not as aerodynamically clean as 12AY).

You can go FULL throttle from 16k feet upwards since the 914 is capable of supplying only MCP at that altitude. So if I am slower at 5500 RPM above 16k feet and whatever MP is left up there it more or less boils down to the engine not delivering the appropriate power. Another clear indication is my lower fuelflow of at least well under 6GPH and an oiltemperature slowly decreasing at very high altitude while climbing at a slower IAS (75 KIAS instead of 100 KIAS at lower altitude).

It was a warm day with higher DA, so that in the end with a little more drag of my bird, which could maybe cost 3 kts or so I come near your numbers.

That said I am aware that it's some guessing from my side, since I'm lacking important values for an accurate comparison...

Interesting though that my climb rate was still 400FPM at FL200.

BTW the DA40 TDI makes 105KIAS at FL200 with 80% load and the 155hp Turbodiesel engine.

Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at Reply with quote

Roland,

We often fly at 12K ft in our mono-wheel. We see about 130 - 140 kts ias at 70% power (30.5 in Hg, 5000 rpm).

Our experience has shown there are three important factors for higher altitude flight. The turbo waste gate must fully close - no free play in the cable. There must be no leaks at the carb bowls - look for fuel stains on the drip trays. If you have the coarse setting of the Airmaster per the manual, your coarse setting will not be coarse enough. As I recall, we had to adjust the coarse setting about two turns more coarse for proper performance. Bud suggests fly in CRUISE /AUTO mode at full power (100%) at cruise altitude. Pitch down and accelerate towards VNE. If the rpm increases well before reaching VNE, you have hit the coarse limit and it needs to be set more coarse.

The fuel flows you report are about right. We see 5.5 gph at 70% power and roughly 7 gph at 100%. You really need a manifold pressure gauge!

I hope this helps.

Jim & Heather


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Europa Trigear with Rotax 914 running out of steam at Reply with quote

Jim and Heather,
130-140KIAS is not achievable with the Trigear. As I wrote I see 130KIAS at 100% (MCP) (at)10000ft, me alone on board. I have the impression, that the Trigear is not at all comparable with the Mono performance wise. Erich Trombleys Mono is about 10kt faster at 18k ft than Bud's Trigear. What I'll try next is max cruise (at)18k ft to compare that with Bud's 118KIAS. However I don't expect to see such numbers, given my 105KIAS (at) FL200, rather about 110KIAS. My Europa is a little more draggy for sure, but given the lower fuelflow compared to Bud's Trigear I assume, that my 914 lacks power.
Good suggestion to check the wastegate operation - and the MP-gauge of course.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group