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Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge

 
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braywood



Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 17
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:10 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Hello All - I thought this would be a good place to get feedback about using piano hinges for the elevator on a long fuselage Air Camper.
I have made some formed hinges, these wide base ones I think I will use for the rudder. See attached drawing.
Since you guys are much more experienced than I, can I get some feedback about the piano hinges? I am thinking they will reduce the gap and seal it at the same time. Only a bit of work needed on the trailing edge of the horizontal stab to allow full deflection of the elevators (I think, but have not actually done it yet!).
Your learned input always welcome and enjoyed!

Mark Bowler


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95w Wide Elevator & Rudder Hinge Assembly.PDF
 Description:
Wide Base Titanium rudder & elevator hinge assembly

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 Filename:  95w Wide Elevator & Rudder Hinge Assembly.PDF
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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:39 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Do you have any pictures?

I tried sealing the gaps on my elevators and found very little difference in
performance (unlike sealing the gaps on the ailerons, which makes a HUGE
improvement).

My only concern with piano hinges is how they would be attached. I would
not rely on wood screws to hold them in place. On my ailerons (which have
piano hinges), the hinges are attached with machine screws going through the
wood into nutplates.

Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
RV-10 N142KW hopefully flying this year

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speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.n
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:23 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

I used the formed MS hinge, (not the standard rolled knuckle) cut to about 21/2" length. I milled a slot in the wood, (1/8") and filled the gap within the slot with thin plywood and epoxy. The assembly was drilled in place and fitted with screws and "T" nuts. These were also epoxied to prevent backing out. I did this for the elevator and rudder. My aircraft has not been flight tested and this hinge method has not been proven.

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Hinge.jpg
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Hinge.jpg



Hinge2.jpg
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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:46 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Michael, when are you ever going to fly that thing?  It’s been finished for over a year now, hasn’t it?

Jack Phillips

From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 8:23 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge

I used the formed MS hinge, (not the standard rolled knuckle) cut to about 21/2" length. I milled a slot in the wood, (1/8") and filled the gap within the slot with thin plywood and epoxy. The assembly was drilled in place and fitted with screws and "T" nuts. These were also epoxied to prevent backing out. I did this for the elevator and rudder. My aircraft has not been flight tested and this hinge method has not been proven.


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speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.n
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:11 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Hello jack. It actually has been finished for more like 3 years. lots of hurdles along the way...just typical things that have a priority over aircraft. (yes, I said it!) Anyhoot, I am in line for a hangar this summer and should have my private in hand by end of this month. (if nothing else derails my plans...)
I am also building another aircraft...a kit this time!


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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

What are you building now?

From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 9:11 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge

Hello jack. It actually has been finished for more like 3 years. lots of hurdles along the way...just typical things that have a priority over aircraft. (yes, I said it!) Anyhoot, I am in line for a hangar this summer and should have my private in hand by end of this month. (if nothing else derails my plans...)



I am also building another aircraft...a kit this time!


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Dan Helsper



Joined: 28 Dec 2016
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Yes, I too would really like to see that airplane fly.

Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN


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Loensloe Airfield
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braywood



Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 17
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

[quote="pietflyer"]Do you have any pictures?

I tried sealing the gaps on my elevators and found very little difference in
performance (unlike sealing the gaps on the ailerons, which makes a HUGE
improvement).

My only concern with piano hinges is how they would be attached. I would
not rely on wood screws to hold them in place. On my ailerons (which have
piano hinges), the hinges are attached with machine screws going through the
wood into nutplates.

Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
RV-10 N142KW hopefully flying this year

Hello Jack - thank you for your input. I need to do up a model of the piano hinge to better explain, and to convince myself it will work! I accept that sealing the elevator gap doesn't do much, but every little bit helps!
I don't have an approved (UK) hinge, so thought the piano hinge would be the least difficult to get accepted here. Will still have to use my titanium ones for the rudder.
I would use bolts and nutplates to attach the piano hinge. With the hinge pivot point at the top of the joint, elevator down deflection will be the issue to solve.


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braywood



Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 17
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

[quote="pietflyer"]Do you have any pictures?

I tried sealing the gaps on my elevators and found very little difference in
performance (unlike sealing the gaps on the ailerons, which makes a HUGE
improvement).

My only concern with piano hinges is how they would be attached. I would
not rely on wood screws to hold them in place. On my ailerons (which have
piano hinges), the hinges are attached with machine screws going through the
wood into nutplates.

Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
RV-10 N142KW hopefully flying this year

Hello Again Jack! - here is a sketch of the piano hinge attachment I am thinking of - there would be a wedge shaped ply piece on the trailing edge of the horizontal stab and the leading edge of the elevator. A 1/8" thick wedge will give over 20 degrees deflection of the elevator - what we are required to have here in the UK.


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Elevator Piano Hinge Assembly.PDF
 Description:
Trailing edge of horizontal stab, 3mm ply wedge, 1 3/4" piano hinge, ply wedge, leading edge of elevator. Bolted together with nutplates.

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braywood



Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 17
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

That's not a workshop, that is a museum!! Wow.......

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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Should work just fine

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taildrags



Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 1609
Location: Medford, OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

Braywood: if you think Speedbrake's shop is ultra-sanitary, you should see Jake Schultz's shop! Truly white-glove spotless! Jake is building a Rotec R2800 radial engine powered, steel-tube fuselage Air Camper up in Washington state.

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Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop
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braywood



Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 17
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

[quote="pietflyer"]Should work just fine

Hi Pietflyer - I got an email reply from another enthusiast and he suggested that if the horizontal stab were to flex, the piano hinge could bind and cause control problems. This was enough of a possibility, which I had not thought of, for me to stick with the individual hinges.
He also suggested that there was little noticeable benefit to having the elevator gap sealed.
Back to making my titanium hinges! Thanks for your input.


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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: Air Camper Elevator Piano Hinge Reply with quote

If concerned about that, you could break the piano hinges into several short
sections (I did this on my aileron hinges, for the same reason). From
observing my tail section in flight (one of the great advantages of open
cockpit flying), I don't think there is enough flexure to cause any concern.

Jack Phillips
Pietenpol Air Camper NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"

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