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Oil temps

 
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greg.barnhard@gmail.com



Joined: 24 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

Here’s one I’m trying to wrap my head around.

In the past, on my Yak 52W, my oil temps always seemed normal. They would take a little bit of time to warm up but I could easily control them and keep them in the middle of the green arc (oil in temp). In the summer I could run without a blocker plate and then as it got progressively colder I would use different blocker plates with different levels of blockage on the oil cooler face. No problems keeping it at least 120 no matter how cold it got (New Yorker here).

Fast forward, I did a top overhaul on my engine and replaced all of the flexible lines on the airplane, and no matter what I’m lucky if I can keep the oil temps in the green. Even on a 60-70F day I would have to use a full blocker plate on the cooler to get the oil temp up. I could get it warm for a Runup to about 110F. On takeoff with full power the oil temps would plummet down to 90F or lower. They wouldn’t start to come up until I close the cowl shutters a bit then I could get them to 110-120F. If I didn’t use a blocker plate the oil temps would be anywhere from 90-100F the entire flight.

I know that I’m lucky that the temps aren’t too high but low oil temps are concerning to me. In the winter time I’m lucky to have 120F. And that’s with the full blocker plate and the oil door full closed. When I go in to land and start reducing the power the oil temp drops. By the time I hit the ground it’s indicating 75F or so.

Any guesses or am I just stuck with it? I don’t believe I have a vernatherm in my cooler. I’m fairly certain it’s just a bypass valve. Is it possible it’s stuck and not letting oil bypass the cooler as it gets cold and thick?

Thanks for the insight.

Greg


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:21 pm    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

Regarding the top overhaul, are the cylinders, pistons and rings all stock? Not that it could be the cause of the problem. I’m just curious.

How many hours on the top overhaul now?
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Feb 3, 2019, at 1:11 PM, "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Here’s one I’m trying to wrap my head around.

In the past, on my Yak 52W, my oil temps always seemed normal. They would take a little bit of time to warm up but I could easily control them and keep them in the middle of the green arc (oil in temp). In the summer I could run without a blocker plate and then as it got progressively colder I would use different blocker plates with different levels of blockage on the oil cooler face. No problems keeping it at least 120 no matter how cold it got (New Yorker here).

Fast forward, I did a top overhaul on my engine and replaced all of the flexible lines on the airplane, and no matter what I’m lucky if I can keep the oil temps in the green. Even on a 60-70F day I would have to use a full blocker plate on the cooler to get the oil temp up. I could get it warm for a Runup to about 110F. On takeoff with full power the oil temps would plummet down to 90F or lower. They wouldn’t start to come up until I close the cowl shutters a bit then I could get them to 110-120F. If I didn’t use a blocker plate the oil temps would be anywhere from 90-100F the entire flight.

I know that I’m lucky that the temps aren’t too high but low oil temps are concerning to me. In the winter time I’m lucky to have 120F. And that’s with the full blocker plate and the oil door full closed. When I go in to land and start reducing the power the oil temp drops. By the time I hit the ground it’s indicating 75F or so.

Any guesses or am I just stuck with it? I don’t believe I have a vernatherm in my cooler. I’m fairly certain it’s just a bypass valve. Is it possible it’s stuck and not letting oil bypass the cooler as it gets cold and thick?

Thanks for the insight.

Greg




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bmacey916(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

 Greg,
I also have a 52TW. I lived in Colorado and have flown the airplane and cold weather, never had a problem like you described. More often it’s a problem keeping it cool and warm weather; in any case, I would suspect the temperature gage is malfunctioning.  Good luck and let us know what fixes it.
On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 2:27 PM Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

Regarding the top overhaul, are the cylinders, pistons and rings all stock?  Not that it could be the cause of the problem. I’m just curious.

How many hours on the top overhaul now?
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 3, 2019, at 1:11 PM, "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Here’s one I’m trying to wrap my head around.
>
> In the past, on my Yak 52W, my oil temps always seemed normal. They would take a little bit of time to warm up but I could easily control them and keep them in the middle of the green arc (oil in temp). In the summer I could run without a blocker plate and then as it got progressively colder I would use different blocker plates with different levels of blockage on the oil cooler face. No problems keeping it at least 120 no matter how cold it got (New Yorker here).
>
> Fast forward, I did a top overhaul on my engine and replaced all of the flexible lines on the airplane, and no matter what I’m lucky if I can keep the oil temps in the green. Even on a 60-70F day I would have to use a full blocker plate on the cooler to get the oil temp up. I could get it warm for a Runup to about 110F. On takeoff with full power the oil temps would plummet down to 90F or lower. They wouldn’t start to come up until I close the cowl shutters a bit then I could get them to 110-120F. If I didn’t use a blocker plate the oil temps would be anywhere from 90-100F the entire flight.
>
> I know that I’m lucky that the temps aren’t too high but low oil temps are concerning to me. In the winter time I’m lucky to have 120F. And that’s with the full blocker plate and the oil door full closed. When I go in to land and start reducing the power the oil temp drops. By the time I hit the ground it’s indicating 75F or so.
>
> Any guesses or am I just stuck with it? I don’t believe I have a vernatherm in my cooler. I’m fairly certain it’s just a bypass valve. Is it possible it’s stuck and not letting oil bypass the cooler as it gets cold and thick?
>
> Thanks for the insight.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487410#487410
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

We use to know a guy named Macey....

On Feb 3, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Brian Macey <bmacey916(at)gmail.com (bmacey916(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Greg,
I also have a 52TW. I lived in Colorado and have flown the airplane and cold weather, never had a problem like you described. More often it’s a problem keeping it cool and warm weather; in any case, I would suspect the temperature gage is malfunctioning. Good luck and let us know what fixes it.
On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 2:27 PM Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

Regarding the top overhaul, are the cylinders, pistons and rings all stock? Not that it could be the cause of the problem. I’m just curious.

How many hours on the top overhaul now?
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 3, 2019, at 1:11 PM, "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Here’s one I’m trying to wrap my head around.
>
> In the past, on my Yak 52W, my oil temps always seemed normal. They would take a little bit of time to warm up but I could easily control them and keep them in the middle of the green arc (oil in temp). In the summer I could run without a blocker plate and then as it got progressively colder I would use different blocker plates with different levels of blockage on the oil cooler face. No problems keeping it at least 120 no matter how cold it got (New Yorker here).
>
> Fast forward, I did a top overhaul on my engine and replaced all of the flexible lines on the airplane, and no matter what I’m lucky if I can keep the oil temps in the green. Even on a 60-70F day I would have to use a full blocker plate on the cooler to get the oil temp up. I could get it warm for a Runup to about 110F. On takeoff with full power the oil temps would plummet down to 90F or lower. They wouldn’t start to come up until I close the cowl shutters a bit then I could get them to 110-120F. If I didn’t use a blocker plate the oil temps would be anywhere from 90-100F the entire flight.
>
> I know that I’m lucky that the temps aren’t too high but low oil temps are concerning to me. In the winter time I’m lucky to have 120F. And that’s with the full blocker plate and the oil door full closed. When I go in to land and start reducing the power the oil temp drops. By the time I hit the ground it’s indicating 75F or so.
>
> Any guesses or am I just stuck with it? I don’t believe I have a vernatherm in my cooler. I’m fairly certain it’s just a bypass valve. Is it possible it’s stuck and not letting oil bypass the cooler as it gets cold and thick?
>
> Thanks for the insight.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487410#487410
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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greg.barnhard@gmail.com



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil temps Reply with quote

I ave three independent oil temp gauges reading identically. The probes have all been tested and are accurate.

Dennis, it is not stock. I have Barrett pistons and rings. At the present time there are 80 hours since the top.

The first flight I did after the top, I expected high oil temps and had quite the opposite.

Thanks,
Greg


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

Are any of the 3 gauges reading the oil temp coming out of the oil cooler/going into the oil tank? Or are all reading the oil temp coming from the oil tank and going into the oil pump?
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Feb 3, 2019, at 7:43 PM, "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I ave three independent oil temp gauges reading identically. The probes have all been tested and are accurate.

Dennis, it is not stock. I have Barrett pistons and rings. At the present time there are 80 hours since the top.

The first flight I did after the top, I expected high oil temps and had quite the opposite.

Thanks,
Greg




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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil temps Reply with quote

All three read oil in from the tank to the engine. The third temp probe is also mounted in the oil canister where the other two oil temp probes are installed.

Greg


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

I'm sure you already know the two probes in the canister are for the front and rear cockpit.

A suggestion - if you can figure out a way to install an oil temp probe on the output side of the oil pump/going to the oil cooler, that will give you some idea of how much temperature drop there is for the oil going through the oil cooler.
Dennis


On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 9:48:30 PM EST, greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com> wrote:




--> Yak-List message posted by: "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)>

All three read oil in from the tank to the engine. The third temp probe is also mounted in the oil canister where the other two oil temp probes are installed.

Greg

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

Any possibility the temperature bypass in the oil cooler is not working

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2019, at 8:01 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm sure you already know the two probes in the canister are for the front and rear cockpit.

A suggestion - if you can figure out a way to install an oil temp probe on the output side of the oil pump/going to the oil cooler, that will give you some idea of how much temperature drop there is for the oil going through the oil cooler.
Dennis


On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 9:48:30 PM EST, greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com) <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)> wrote:




--> Yak-List message posted by: "greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)" <greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com (greg.barnhard(at)gmail.com)>

All three read oil in from the tank to the engine. The third temp probe is also mounted in the oil canister where the other two oil temp probes are installed.

Greg

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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487424#487424



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greg.barnhard@gmail.com



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Oil temps Reply with quote

Dennis, I like the idea I’m just not sure how feasible that would be. I would like to do that.

George, as soon as I get home from this trip I plan on pulling the cooler to be cleaned and inspected.

Do the 52W coolers actually have a thermostat/vernatherm or is it just a basic bypass valve?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

Also out of curiosity, during all this extremely low oil temps going on, what is the CHT doing? Is it also low, acting normally, or high?

Typically, the oil in any air cooled engine provides about 30% of the cooling. If the oil temps are in actuality that low, (for the whole engine) then CHT should be low as well.

What about oil pressure? High, normal, or low?

What I am sure everyone is thinking concerns the replacement of those hoses. I am just making this up as I go along, but it occurs to me that if the oil *FLOW* is reduced, the oil cooler will do a much better job of cooling the oil and oil temperature measured coming out of it might be low. Of course if I happen to be correct (and again, I am just spit-balling here) reduced engine oil flow is an extremely bad thing. If correct, I would expect to see low oil temps due to an obstruction (flapper?) in a hose, *BUT* higher than normal CHT's. Oil pressure should be impacted as well.

Mark

p.s. Dennis's suggestion is dead on as far as I am concerned. You might also get some kind of idea of what is going on with a temp gun that you can "aim" and see temperatures. Usually used to quickly find a missing cylinder as well. This problem is somewhat worrisome.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

Good question about the vernatherm. Early YAK-50's had it. It was removed by a Technical Direction. My 50 did NOT have one installed when I got it, but I obtained one from a Russian helicopter oil cooler and put it back in. It works extremely well. I think the Russians were worried about it failing in the open position, thus by-passing the oil cooler and sending oil temps skyrocketing! It's a legitimate concern. I have not seen the vernatherm installed in two other YAK-50's nor two YAK-52's, but that is my total experience, and I have no clue as to the TW model. I suspect it is NOT installed because of your description.

Meaning: In my 50, without the vernatherm my oil temps would be low in the winter. I too would have to use a blockage on the front of the cooler to keep temps in the green. However WITH the vernaherm installed, oil temps come up much faster in summer AND winter, and stabilize quickly. They NEVER go out of the green LOW, but of course will go out of the green high. Interestingly enough, they do not go out high as fast as they used to. So given your LOW oil temps, even in the winter BEFORE you did anything, I doubt you have one installed.

Mark
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greg.barnhard@gmail.com



Joined: 24 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Oil temps Reply with quote

Mark,

CHTs and oil pressure are all normal. I don’t have any issues controlling the CHTs as usual. The oil pressure has always been 65psi give or take for as long as I can remember (and have the data to track).

I changed out the hoses to the cooler to Teflon hoses manufactured by a certified aviation hose shop. No flappers or imperfections at install or after an inspection. The hoses are SAE not metric and if I recall correctly the ID on the SAE hoses are ever so slightly larger than the metric hoses (I’m using -12 hoses). It’s a good thought.

I just heard from Cliff and he thinks the bypass valve might be stuck. Cooler is coming out to get flushed/cleaned. Is Pacific Oil cooler still a good shop to use?

Thanks,
Greg


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:22 pm    Post subject: Oil temps Reply with quote

I have the vernatherm too on my oil cooler.
I concur with Mark: it works very well.

Jan

On 04/02/2019, 20:39, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



Good question about the vernatherm. Early YAK-50's had it. It was removed by a Technical Direction. My 50 did NOT have one installed when I got it, but I obtained one from a Russian helicopter oil cooler and put it back in. It works extremely well. I think the Russians were worried about it failing in the open position, thus by-passing the oil cooler and sending oil temps skyrocketing! It's a legitimate concern. I have not seen the vernatherm installed in two other YAK-50's nor two YAK-52's, but that is my total experience, and I have no clue as to the TW model. I suspect it is NOT installed because of your description.

Meaning: In my 50, without the vernatherm my oil temps would be low in the winter. I too would have to use a blockage on the front of the cooler to keep temps in the green. However WITH the vernaherm installed, oil temps come up much faster in summer AND winter, and stabilize quickly. They NEVER go out of the green LOW, but of course will go out of the green high. Interestingly enough, they do not go out high as fast as they used to. So given your LOW oil temps, even in the winter BEFORE you did anything, I doubt you have one installed.

Mark


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LawnDart



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Oil temps Reply with quote

[quote="mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m"]Good question about the vernatherm. Early YAK-50's had it. It was removed by a Technical Direction. My 50 did NOT have one installed when I got it, but I obtained one from a Russian helicopter oil cooler and put it back in.[/quote]
Anyone have the part number of the helicopter vernatherm? I believe our Yak-18T has one installed (warms up quickly in the winter) however the Yak-52 does not - takes much longer and requires a blocking plate at any temp below 10C.


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