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Aerobatics training in the CJ 6

 
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motoadve



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 85
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

This has been a test of patience for me.

I have been itching to do aerobatics on my own, but waited to get training.
Finally got out with my friend who is a very experienced former airshow pilot.

We did rolls, loops, split s, Immelmans, spins, spirals, steep turns, wing overs and accelerated stalls.

Something we noticed, and not sure if its my plane because of the VGs, it would not go into a spin, does half a turn and gets out, and if keep pulling becomes a spiral, recovery was super quick, kind of instant.

For now I am comfortable doing rolls, steep turns and wing overs on my own, want more practice to feel comfortable doing more stuff.
What a fun airplane.

https://youtu.be/up4YrTWzLSU


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:22 am    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

FUN!!!Justin/N280NC
On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 7:49 AM motoadve <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>

This has been a test of patience for me.

I have been itching to do aerobatics on my own, but waited to get training.
Finally got out with my friend who is a very experienced former airshow pilot.

We did rolls, loops, split s, Immelmans, spins, spirals, steep turns, wing overs and accelerated stalls.

Something we noticed, and not sure if its my plane because of the VGs, it would not go into a spin, does half a turn and gets out, and if keep pulling  becomes a spiral, recovery was super quick, kind of instant.

For now I am comfortable doing rolls, steep turns and wing overs on my own, want more practice to feel comfortable doing more stuff.
What a fun airplane.

https://youtu.be/up4YrTWzLSU

--------
www.Backcountry182.com
Cessna 182 P
CJ -6




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ed.kettler



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
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Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Hi Motoadve,

Welcome to the wonderful world on Changs!

Based on what you are saying about the plane's behavior, you may be nose heavy. Taking all of the vacuum tube avionics out from behind the second seat may have moved the CG well forward. Are you also running out of trim during approach?

I have read where several pilots have installed lead in the tail to reinstate the normal CG positions

From one of my RC instructors: "Nose heavy planes fly poorly. Tail heavy planes fly poorly ... once"

Ed


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:41 am    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

When the old radio equipment is removed from the rear compartment, most CJ's I have seen have between 25 and 50 lbs of lead/lead shot installed in the tail to bring it back into CG.

Dennis


On Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 11:29:08 PM EST, ed.kettler <ed.kettler(at)gmail.com> wrote:




--> Yak-List message posted by: "ed.kettler" <ed.kettler(at)gmail.com (ed.kettler(at)gmail.com)>

Hi Motoadve,

Welcome to the wonderful world on Changs!

Based on what you are saying about the plane's behavior, you may be nose heavy. Taking all of the vacuum tube avionics out from behind the second seat may have moved the CG well forward. Are you also running out of trim during approach?

I have read where several pilots have installed lead in the tail to reinstate the normal CG positions

Quote:
From one of my RC instructors: "Nose heavy planes fly poorly. Tail heavy planes fly poorly ... once"

Ed

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N53HM

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Absolutely correct that nose heavy aircraft don't spin or snap as well as those with the CG aft. It was common practice in Russia to add a lead weight in the tail to bring the CG aft. Pretty far aft actually. This improved how the airplane snapped significantly. Of course they also pulled the wings off of early models pulling G's well above maximum. It has been my experience that Russian pilots are very serious about winning and personally I admire that about them. Sometimes slightly crazy is a good thing.

Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

To Mark’s point, I trained briefly with Gennady Elfimov in the UK 15+ years ago in a Yak 52. When I asked him to demonstrate the plane’s aerobatic capability, every control movement went from stop to stop and my head bounced around the canopy like a pinball. Very, very aggressive in true Russian form.

“Helps to put arms on canopy rails,” he suggested.
It didn’t.

Blitz Fox415-307-2405


On Feb 28, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

Absolutely correct that nose heavy aircraft don't spin or snap as well as those with the CG aft. It was common practice in Russia to add a lead weight in the tail to bring the CG aft. Pretty far aft actually. This improved how the airplane snapped significantly. Of course they also pulled the wings off of early models pulling G's well above maximum. It has been my experience that Russian pilots are very serious about winning and personally I admire that about them. Sometimes slightly crazy is a good thing.

Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Blitz........remove and pour the tail skid full of molten lead. You will have to repaint it. I removed a measured 500 lbs + of antique radios, excessive wiring, instruments, etc. Leaded skid was enough to get CG in limits.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 28, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]To Mark’s point, I trained briefly with Gennady Elfimov in the UK 15+ years ago in a Yak 52. When I asked him to demonstrate the plane’s aerobatic capability, every control movement went from stop to stop and my head bounced around the canopy like a pinball. Very, very aggressive in true Russian form.

“Helps to put arms on canopy rails,” he suggested.
It didn’t.

Blitz Fox415-307-2405


On Feb 28, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

Absolutely correct that nose heavy aircraft don't spin or snap as well as those with the CG aft. It was common practice in Russia to add a lead weight in the tail to bring the CG aft. Pretty far aft actually. This improved how the airplane snapped significantly. Of course they also pulled the wings off of early models pulling G's well above maximum. It has been my experience that Russian pilots are very serious about winning and personally I admire that about them. Sometimes slightly crazy is a good thing.

Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Marcus,Really???  Can you send me a copy of your weight and balance.
Doug
On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:31 PM Marcus Bates <marcusbates(at)att.net (marcusbates(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]Blitz........remove and pour the tail skid full of molten lead.  You will have to repaint it.  I removed a measured 500 lbs + of antique radios, excessive wiring, instruments, etc.   Leaded skid was enough to get CG in limits.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 28, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]To Mark’s point, I trained briefly with Gennady Elfimov in the UK 15+ years ago in a Yak 52. When I asked him to demonstrate the plane’s aerobatic capability, every control movement went from stop to stop and my head bounced around the canopy like a pinball. Very, very aggressive in true Russian form.

“Helps to put arms on canopy rails,” he suggested.
It didn’t.

Blitz Fox415-307-2405


On Feb 28, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

Absolutely correct that nose heavy aircraft don't spin or snap as well as those with the CG aft.   It was common practice in Russia to add a lead weight in the tail to bring the CG aft.  Pretty far aft actually.  This improved how the airplane snapped significantly.  Of course they also pulled the wings off of early models pulling G's well above maximum.  It has been my experience that Russian pilots are very serious about winning and personally I admire that about them.  Sometimes slightly crazy is a good thing.

Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

No longer in my possession.........

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On Feb 28, 2019, at 7:19 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Marcus,
Really??? Can you send me a copy of your weight and balance.

Doug

> On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:31 PM Marcus Bates <marcusbates(at)att.net> wrote:
> Blitz........remove and pour the tail skid full of molten lead. You will have to repaint it. I removed a measured 500 lbs + of antique radios, excessive wiring, instruments, etc. Leaded skid was enough to get CG in limits


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

I ended up up putting 33 lbs of lead in my CJs tail. I filled a canvas bag full of lead bird shot and put the bag in the very tail section. The bag and bird shot takes the form of the compartment and is unmovable. I can inspect the compartment occasionally by simply vacuuming out the bird shot and removing the bag. Has worked well for 23+ years. When I put on the M-14p I added shot to the bag and melted lead into the tail skid. I believe the total ballast came to 50 something lbs. My airplane flies with zero trim with full fuel, both seats occupied and 50 lbs of bags.

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby





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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Hi Marcus;

Have to go with Doug’s comment on this.

Having restored a few CJ’s for licensing in Canada over the past 25 years weight and balance was always a concern. I removed all surplus wiring, complete radio compass system and a few other surplus items totaling 195 lbs. I did not include a battery weight estimate (which I would guess at possibly 50 lbs.) since some of that is restored with new batteries. So I may have removed up to 220 lbs. almost all of which resided well aft of the CG.

Part of the ballast was a steel scuba tank (ground reserve air supply) mounted on the radio compass receiver rack. 43 lbs. including attach structure replacing the 50 lb. receiver so no structural change was required.

The primary ballast at the tail compartment (with the access panel and elevator trim drum) calculated to bring the forward condition CG within the Chinese limit was
45 lbs. In accordance with FAA AC 43.13-2B I installed support structure to the fwd. and aft bulkheads sufficient to react the required 9g load and to these a reinforced stainless steel tray to support a stack of 1/8” PB sheets.

The primary danger of an excessively forward CG location is the loss of elevator authority in the landing phase so the next step was flight testing with the aircraft loaded in the most forward condition. Fuel was maintained between 20 to 40 liters total and all landings were at idle power with the flap in the down position.

Using a grass runway the initial landing showed excellent elevator authority, easily doing a 3 point landing (mains and tail skid). But due to concern with that much weight in the tail possibly affecting spin recovery and of course the expected effect on the fully loaded CG I continued testing with reducing weight and finished with 28 lbs. of lead (plus 2 lb. of attach structure) and still, in my opinion, adequate elevator authority.


This represented a most forward CG location approx. 20 mm (11/16”) further forward than the actual factory limit and while that was a comfortable enough location during testing it could be less so in a worst case scenario of forward loading with a very heavy pilot, zero fuel and no power.

Final location of the most aft condition was 1/10” less than the factory limit.

The total balance moment provided by the air tank 43 LB (at) 195” (8385 in/lb) plus PB ballast of 30 lb (at) 317” (9510 in/lb)
if reacted by tail ballast alone would require a weight of 56.5 lbs. which I would consider unacceptable. Generally speaking there is usually a Type Certificate Data Sheet specified limit to the amount of ballast weight that can be installed in the tail. In the case of the T6 it is 33 lbs. Of course this aircraft has no TCDS
so it is unknown.

Later flying revealed excellent solo spin recovery and cruise with two “normal” weight occupants (170 lbs.+/-) with the elevator trim neutral.

Walt



From: Marcus Bates (marcusbates(at)att.net)
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 2:34 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6

Blitz........remove and pour the tail skid full of molten lead. You will have to repaint it. I removed a measured 500 lbs + of antique radios, excessive wiring, instruments, etc. Leaded skid was enough to get CG in limits.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 28, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
To Mark’s point, I trained briefly with Gennady Elfimov in the UK 15+ years ago in a Yak 52. When I asked him to demonstrate the plane’s aerobatic capability, every control movement went from stop to stop and my head bounced around the canopy like a pinball. Very, very aggressive in true Russian form.
“Helps to put arms on canopy rails,” he suggested.

It didn’t.

Blitz Fox 415-307-2405



On Feb 28, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

Absolutely correct that nose heavy aircraft don't spin or snap as well as those with the CG aft. It was common practice in Russia to add a lead weight in the tail to bring the CG aft. Pretty far aft actually. This improved how the airplane snapped significantly. Of course they also pulled the wings off of early models pulling G's well above maximum. It has been my experience that Russian pilots are very serious about winning and personally I admire that about them. Sometimes slightly crazy is a good thing.

Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 7:42 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6

When the old radio equipment is removed from the rear compartment, most CJ's I have seen have between 25 and 50 lbs of lead/lead shot installed in the tail to bring it back into CG.

Dennis
On Wednesday, February 27, 2019, 11:29:08 PM EST, ed.kettler <ed.kettler(at)gmail.com (ed.kettler(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "ed.kettler" <ed.kettler(at)gmail.com (ed.kettler(at)gmail.com) <mailto:ed.kettler(at)gmail.com (ed.kettler(at)gmail.com)> >
Hi Motoadve,
Welcome to the wonderful world on Changs!
Based on what you are saying about the plane's behavior, you may be nose heavy. Taking all of the vacuum tube avionics out from behind the second seat may have moved the CG well forward. Are you also running out of trim during approach?
I have read where several pilots have installed lead in the tail to reinstate the normal CG positions
Quote:
From one of my RC instructors: "Nose heavy planes fly poorly. Tail heavy planes fly poorly ... once"


Ed
--------

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N53HM

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stephen.hayne



Joined: 01 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

I completely agree with Doug and Walt - just did it myself on my CJ. 28lbs of lead in the tail, and 50lbs of removable ballast (for now) in the old battery box... makes it fly better solo. I remove it for my "he ain't heavy" friends.

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Ttail



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Stephen you refer to the old battery box. Where is your current battery located ?

Though I have modern western batteries they are still in the old battery box.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

I built another tray in front of the smoke tank - better for CG and baggage...

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNpmVwE-HK8cqlbmIlTXiEfCYjZrZI2xDqlsNSJv2FQ2OzPLwv4bm_zeBW5CAIx6A/photo/AF1QipNjTwJlFfHnGlowUKD2GFLBR2SZ0oXr9Qu_WiJ4?key=UHdiTUJqTTcwUFdCd0ZIUEhzTkpFYW8weHJhZ1d3


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Clouddog



Joined: 02 Jun 2016
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Location: Lebanon, TN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:16 pm    Post subject: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

Ttail,

I moved my batteries aft of your current battery box onto an old radio rack shelf. My smoke oil tank is also there. I use the battery box as a storage container for tools, spare parts, chocks, tie-downs, scuba hose for my spare air bottle that is stored on a rack above the main air tank. That battery box to me is more useful as a secure storage container for stuff you may need on the road. Just a thought.
Greg "Clouddog" Wrobel
On Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 15:08 Ttail <ttail(at)internode.on.net (ttail(at)internode.on.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ttail" <ttail(at)internode.on.net (ttail(at)internode.on.net)>

Stephen you refer to the ld battery box. Where is your current battery located ?

Though I have modern western batteries they are still in the old battery box.




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerobatics training in the CJ 6 Reply with quote

I should have said beside the smok tank. That's as far aft as I can put it without building whole new infrastructure above the ADF hole.

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