Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Motorglider Wings?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
clivesutton



Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 143
Location: KENILWORTH

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:11 pm    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Bob Hitchcock's EC website news item for this week is 'Glider Wings'.

Whilst I have the Std Classic Touring wings, I'm quite interested in the Motorglider capability of a Europa. But it poses some questions for me. So for those who already have and use them:-

1) Can they be safely carried on the factory Mono trailer - and if not, how do you move them around, and store them?

2) To reduce the cost impact, has anyone tried 'syndicating' a set of MG wings with another Europa owner - and how practical is that from the engineering/rigging point of view - e.g. has anyone tried to set up two fuselages to accept the same set of wings?

3) For the average Europa empty weight range, what is the additional weight penalty of using MG wings, and is it so large that touring becomes impractical? [mine was just re-weighed and is 850lb]

4) i have seen several images of MG wings on TriGears, but i don't think i've seen any on a Mono - can anyone refer a link to same please?

Thanks in anticipation. Clive G-YETI


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Clive,

Hopefully Bud Yerly will answer all your questions but here's what we know. We've have a set that we've started, but likely will not complete.

The glider wings are at least 100 lbs heavier. This severely restricts their usefulness for touring.

You are right, there are few photos of a mono with glider wings. I've attached a photo of Terry Severs with one wing in place. Dave Anderson and Ken Carpenter are two mono gliders but no photos (Carpenters is on Yerlys website but with short wings).

A problem with glider wings on a mono is that the spar mod increases the height of the spar causing it to interfere with the flap actuation rod. We have successfully fitted a push pull cable to solve that problem. Another solution is to go to electric flaps like a trigear.

Jim & Heather


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



Hanger_sm.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  211.86 KB
 Viewed:  359 Time(s)

Hanger_sm.JPG


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:58 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Jim,
Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?
Curious, how much floor-spar clearance is there with the glider spars vs short wings? Is there a possibility that a modified/redesigned drive tube could still work for both?
cheers,
Pete

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 7:51 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

Clive,

Hopefully Bud Yerly will answer all your questions but here's what we know.  We've have a set that we've started, but likely will not complete.

The glider wings are at least 100 lbs heavier.  This severely restricts their usefulness for touring.

You are right, there are few photos of a mono with glider wings.  I've attached a photo of Terry Severs with one wing in place.  Dave Anderson and Ken Carpenter are two mono gliders but no photos (Carpenters is on Yerlys website but with short wings).

A problem with glider wings on a mono is that the spar mod increases the height of the spar causing it to interfere with the flap actuation rod.  We have successfully fitted a push pull cable to solve that problem.  Another solution is to go to electric flaps like a trigear.

Jim & Heather




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489211#489211




Attachments:

http://forums.matronics.com//files/hanger_sm_158.jpg



===========
pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========





- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
churchy



Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:22 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Jim and Pete

I am partway through a mono MG build with short and long wings. I pressed Europa for a revised FL20 flap drive that would clear the Mod78 spars, following reports of the conflict on more advanced UK builds. I (eventually) received that redesigned FL20 late last year but my build hasn’t progressed far enough yet to actually test the clearance!
Cheers
Richard C-C

Sent from my iPad

On 14 May 2019, at 12:57, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Jim,
Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?
Curious, how much floor-spar clearance is there with the glider spars vs short wings? Is there a possibility that a modified/redesigned drive tube could still work for both?
cheers,
Pete

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 7:51 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

Clive,

Hopefully Bud Yerly will answer all your questions but here's what we know. We've have a set that we've started, but likely will not complete.

The glider wings are at least 100 lbs heavier. This severely restricts their usefulness for touring.

You are right, there are few photos of a mono with glider wings. I've attached a photo of Terry Severs with one wing in place. Dave Anderson and Ken Carpenter are two mono gliders but no photos (Carpenters is on Yerlys website but with short wings).

A problem with glider wings on a mono is that the spar mod increases the height of the spar causing it to interfere with the flap actuation rod. We have successfully fitted a push pull cable to solve that problem. Another solution is to go to electric flaps like a trigear.

Jim & Heather




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489211#489211




Attachments:

http://forums.matronics.com//files/hanger_sm_158.jpg



===========
pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========







- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:32 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

great news, and fingers X'd Smile

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 8:30 AM Richard Churchill-Coleman <
richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com> wrote:

[quote] Jim and Pete

I am partway through a mono MG build with short and long wings. I pressed
Europa for a revised FL20 flap drive that would clear the Mod78 spars,
following reports of the conflict on more advanced UK builds. I
(eventually) received that redesigned FL20 late last year but my build
hasn’t progressed far enough yet to actually test the clearance!

Cheers
Richard C-C

Sent from my iPad

On 14 May 2019, at 12:57, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:

Jim,

Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or
not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no
increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long
wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?

Curious, how much floor-spar clearance is there with the glider spars vs
short wings? Is there a possibility that a modified/redesigned drive tube
could still work for both?

cheers,
Pete

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 7:51 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Clive,
>
> Hopefully Bud Yerly will answer all your questions but here's what we
> know. We've have a set that we've started, but likely will not complete


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
John Wighton



Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Quote:

Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or
not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no
increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long
wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?

It is true that inertia relief can be credited to mitigate loads and this gives a proportional benefit with heavy wings. But to assume the stresses do not change is incorrect. The MG wings generate more lift, hence the bending moments and shear forces on the root will be higher.

I believe the spar depth was changed to increase 2nd Mt of area. The goal therefore may have been to match the standard a/c stresses. I have some of Jason Russell's work on file from many years ago, it is probably worth taking a look at that and any other design data (at LAA?) to see what the margins are.

I suspect that the long delay in gaining approval for the MG version stems from a reduction in structural margins. Perhaps someone can tell the story????


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
churchy



Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

John

I won’t speculate on the reasons for delay in certification as I am too aware of the law of libel. However, my understanding of the main issue with increasing the MTOW is demonstrating the landing gear is capable of withstanding the additional loads, potentially with prop clearance issues on the mono in addition.

RIchard

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On 15 May 2019, at 08:39, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:



Quote:

Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or
not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no
increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long
wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?

It is true that inertia relief can be credited to mitigate loads and this gives a proportional benefit with heavy wings. But to assume the stresses do not change is incorrect. The MG wings generate more lift, hence the bending moments and shear forces on the root will be higher.

I believe the spar depth was changed to increase 2nd Mt of area. The goal therefore may have been to match the standard a/c stresses. I have some of Jason Russell's work on file from many years ago, it is probably worth taking a look at that and any other design data (at LAA?) to see what the margins are.

I suspect that the long delay in gaining approval for the MG version stems from a reduction in structural margins. Perhaps someone can tell the story????

--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489233#489233











- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:30 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Yes, i forgot to mention gentle landings would be required as that would be the weak link from my understanding.

I still however do not understand the increased spar bending moment due to increased wing mass. Il. Have to start googling Smile

Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On May 15, 2019, at 4:11 AM, Richard Churchill-Coleman <richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com> wrote:



John

I won’t speculate on the reasons for delay in certification as I am too aware of the law of libel. However, my understanding of the main issue with increasing the MTOW is demonstrating the landing gear is capable of withstanding the additional loads, potentially with prop clearance issues on the mono in addition.

RIchard

Sent from my iPhone

> On 15 May 2019, at 08:39, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Quote:
>
> Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or
> not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no
> increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long
> wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?
>
> It is true that inertia relief can be credited to mitigate loads and this gives a proportional benefit with heavy wings. But to assume the stresses do not change is incorrect. The MG wings generate more lift, hence the bending moments and shear forces on the root will be higher.
>
> I believe the spar depth was changed to increase 2nd Mt of area. The goal therefore may have been to match the standard a/c stresses. I have some of Jason Russell's work on file from many years ago, it is probably worth taking a look at that and any other design data (at LAA?) to see what the margins are.
>
> I suspect that the long delay in gaining approval for the MG version stems from a reduction in structural margins. Perhaps someone can tell the story????
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489233#489233
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
John Wighton



Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Pete,

It is the wing area and planform change which creates higher loads. Bigger wing = more lift. The bending moment at the root is calculated using the lift vector x the offset from the root (or centreline).

The bending moment can be reduced by an amount (wing mass x offset of CG from the root (or centreline) datum).

Hence the heavier wing (which will have a local semi-span CG further out than std wing) helps reduce the bending moment, as the moment it creates acts in the opposite direction.

The NET loads at the root for the MG will be higher.

The extra weight on the landing gear may be mitigated by the lower wing loading. Its all in the numbers.......


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rayfitton(at)virginmedia.
Guest





PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:35 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Unsubscribe

Quote:
On May 15, 2019 at 10:29, <Pete (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>

Yes, i forgot to mention gentle landings would be required as that would be the weak link from my understanding.

I still however do not understand the increased spar bending moment due to increased wing mass. Il. Have to start googling Smile

Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On May 15, 2019, at 4:11 AM, Richard Churchill-Coleman <richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Churchill-Coleman <richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com>

John

I won’t speculate on the reasons for delay in certification as I am too aware of the law of libel. However, my understanding of the main issue with increasing the MTOW is demonstrating the landing gear is capable of withstanding the additional loads, potentially with prop clearance issues on the mono in addition.

RIchard

Sent from my iPhone

> On 15 May 2019, at 08:39, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>
>
> Quote:
>
> Here in Canada we can declare whatever gross weight we want (wisely or
> not). Seeing that the added weight is itself in the wing and results in no
> increased stresses, I figure I could simply increase the gross with long
> wings by the same 100lbs without penalty (assuming enough HP). No?
>
> It is true that inertia relief can be credited to mitigate loads and this gives a proportional benefit with heavy wings. But to assume the stresses do not change is incorrect. The MG wings generate more lift, hence the bending moments and shear forces on the root will be higher.
>
> I believe the spar depth was changed to increase 2nd Mt of area. The goal therefore may have been to match the standard a/c stresses. I have some of Jason Russell's work on file from many years ago, it is probably worth taking a look at that and any other design data (at LAA?) to see what the margins are.
>
> I suspect that the long delay in gaining approval for the MG version stems from a reduction in structural margins. Perhaps someone can tell the story????
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489233#489233
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






_-===================================
_-= - The Europa-List Email Forum -
_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
_-= Photoshare, and much much more:
_-=
_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
_-=
_-===================================
_-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
_-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
_-=
_-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
_-=
_-===================================
_-= - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
_-= Add some info to the Matronics Email List Wiki!
_-= --> http://wiki.matronics.com
_-===================================
_-= - List Contribution Web Site -
_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-===================================




- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Clive,
  1. The glider wings cannot fit on a mono trailer without modification. They will stick out far too much off the rear of the trailer to be legal also.
  2. Rare to have two Europas that have wing pins line up exactly. Im not going out on a limb when I say it will be close, but there is nearly no chance for two aircraft to share a wing.
  3. Glider wings are nominally 100 pounds heavier than the XS. Depends on finishing skills, and whether Mod is complete. I add a spar cup for the mod 78 to make rigging easier. New Mod 78 forward socket sort of makes rigging somewhat easier. The wings are heavy, it is best to build a trolley to roll them around. Ive been banged up a few times from wings that got away and rotated while going from load to aircraft.


CG shift from short to long wings really depends on sweep and finish. In my experience it shifts the CG inch aft. Most of my short wings are at a CG of 60, and adding glider wings went to 60.5 or 60.6.
  1. There are a couple monos with glider wings. There is more mass moment of inertia so the rudder inputs to kick one straight may be slightly higher. Landing attitude was figured pretty well in the design so landing picture was not terribly different. Pitch on final with airbrake changes must be anticipated. No airbrake is a real floater. Making a slight friction stop on the airbrake at half extension works out fairly well. Achieving landing attitude requires patience. Float is significant. Europa Aircraft has photos on the ground and in the air. I do not, sorry.


Best Regards,

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.


Sent from Mail for Windows 10


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
clivesutton



Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 143
Location: KENILWORTH

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Thanks all for contributions - especially Bud's detailed answers to my Q's.

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
IanCook_1(at)hotmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:22 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Clive,
I operate the only Extended Wing Europa with a LAA Permit in the UK, G-CBHI. I can change back and forth between XS and Extended Wings with no problem, and use an enclosed trailer built specially in Germany for the mono extended wings. It is shown in the corner of the hangar while I was rigging the machine last winter. It did take a long time to get the Permit, starting in 2009 completed in 2018. The main reasons for the delay were the spar failing when it was plugged into the fuselage for a max structural test at 50 degrees C, hence mod 78. Standing the fuselage next to the hot autoclave full of fuel causing the tank to swell needing a tank change. Both items needed LAA approved repair schemes before the work was completed taking almost 3 years. The LAA then insisted on full spinning trials, over 80 in all. The machine was landed wheels up during this flight trails work taking a further 2 years to complete. After this they wanted a warning system for U/C /airbrakes, a stall warning system. Also there were issues on how to clear it. As a motor glider, touring motor glider or SEP? It did not correctly fit into any of the categories or design requirements. Also written confirmation of the structural clearances for airbrakes flying controls etc was required. A correctly approved Pilots Operating Handbook and audit trail for all the clearance was required from Swift Aviation who had taken over engineering and design approval. It was found the existing XS stall warning did not work correctly on the different wing profile of the extended wing, as the machine could now fly very slowly 45 to 50 knot, having a stall warning going off all the time was just not acceptable. All this added further years, and to cap it all, it got damaged in stormy weather last year when a canopy cover tie broke and managed to undo the canopy handle and remove the door. A further repair scheme was required for this, as all the previous door losses had occurred in flight and were total losses. I have to thank Swift Aviation for their support last year when they were moving their home base from Yorkshire to Coltishall and had so much on. We still do not have the increase in all up mass yet and have a limited C of G, but I am still optimistic that these will come, but further flight trials will be required. However, just in case that drags on I am doing a weight reduction exercise at the moment getting rid of lead acid batteries, vacuum system and gyro instrument etc giving me an extra 20 kg off the basic hull weight.

Best regards

Ian Cook

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List



IMG_0637.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  2.32 MB
 Viewed:  232 Time(s)

IMG_0637.JPG


Back to top
freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:17 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Ian…What an odyssey!!…extraordinary perseverance…Huzzah…please keep us posted.
Best,

Fred
Quote:
On May 19, 2019, at 5:21 AM, Ian Cook <iancook_1(at)hotmail.com (iancook_1(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
I operate the only Extended Wing Europa with a LAA Permit in the UK, G-CBHI. I can change back and forth between XS and Extended Wings with no problem, and use an enclosed trailer built specially in Germany for the mono extended wings. It is shown in the corner of the hangar while I was rigging the machine last winter. It did take a long time to get the Permit, starting in 2009 completed in 2018.
Quote:
Best regardsIan Cook


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:28 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

I have been building mine in the background, since 2003/4, (I forget). I feel guilty that Ian was the pathfinder, my surprise was that Europa/ Swift completed the manual after I completed the build. I have spent the winter completing the bits that were not in the original manual, after my Wing fairings were fitted!I hope to join Ian in the air this Summer but still have a set of unbuilt short wings in the roof of the workshop, hoping I do not need them.
Alan Twigg
Mono Motorglider ( long Wing variant).
Kit 463
Sent from my iPad

On 19 May 2019, at 17:17, Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Ian…What an odyssey!!…extraordinary perseverance…Huzzah…please keep us posted.
Best,

Fred
Quote:
On May 19, 2019, at 5:21 AM, Ian Cook <iancook_1(at)hotmail.com (iancook_1(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
I operate the only Extended Wing Europa with a LAA Permit in the UK, G-CBHI. I can change back and forth between XS and Extended Wings with no problem, and use an enclosed trailer built specially in Germany for the mono extended wings. It is shown in the corner of the hangar while I was rigging the machine last winter. It did take a long time to get the Permit, starting in 2009 completed in 2018.
Quote:
Best regardsIan Cook



- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Ian,

You have earned a special place in aviators heaven!

Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com

On May 19, 2019, at 7:21 AM, Ian Cook <IanCook_1(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

Clive,
I operate the only Extended Wing Europa with a LAA Permit in the UK, G-CBHI. I can change back and forth between XS and Extended Wings with no problem, and use an enclosed trailer built specially in Germany for the mono extended wings. It is shown in the corner of the hangar while I was rigging the machine last winter. It did take a long time to get the Permit, starting in 2009 completed in 2018. The main reasons for the delay were the spar failing when it was plugged into the fuselage for a max structural test at 50 degrees C, hence mod 78. Standing the fuselage next to the hot autoclave full of fuel causing the tank to swell needing a tank change. Both items needed LAA approved repair schemes before the work was completed taking almost 3 years. The LAA then insisted on full spinning trials, over 80 in all. The machine was landed wheels up during this flight trails work taking a further 2 years to complete. After this they wanted a warning system for U/C /airbrakes, a stall warning system. Also there were issues on how to clear it. As a motor glider, touring motor glider or SEP? It did not correctly fit into any of the categories or design requirements. Also written confirmation of the structural clearances for airbrakes flying controls etc was required. A correctly approved Pilots Operating Handbook and audit trail for all the clearance was required from Swift Aviation who had taken over engineering and design approval. It was found the existing XS stall warning did not work correctly on the different wing profile of the extended wing, as the machine could now fly very slowly 45 to 50 knot, having a stall warning going off all the time was just not acceptable. All this added further years, and to cap it all, it got damaged in stormy weather last year when a canopy cover tie broke and managed to undo the canopy handle and remove the door. A further repair scheme was required for this, as all the previous door losses had occurred in flight and were total losses. I have to thank Swift Aviation for !
their su
pport last year when they were moving their home base from Yorkshire to Coltishall and had so much on. We still do not have the increase in all up mass yet and have a limited C of G, but I am still optimistic that these will come, but further flight trials will be required. However, just in case that drags on I am doing a weight reduction exercise at the moment getting rid of lead acid batteries, vacuum system and gyro instrument etc giving me an extra 20 kg off the basic hull weight.

Best regards

Ian Cook

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
John Roedseth



Joined: 20 May 2019
Posts: 2
Location: Luxembourg

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Hi Clive & Europa Fans! I have a Tri-gear Motorglider LX-CWT, which I have been flying about 300+ hours since 2011. I bought it in 2009 as a mono-wheel, made a couple of flights, before rebuilding to tri-gear. There was an article in the Europa Flyer in the last edition before last Xmas about my experience with the motorglider.
I have a hangar space for LX-CWT, and as the plane did not fit anymore, I sold the trailer to Ian Cook. The trailer was made by Anschau in Germany, who probably still have the drawings if you need one made.
My experiences with the motorglider are largely positive. It will never be a high performance sailplane, but offers fun and above all, it is a very economical touring plane. Not as fast as the short wing, but with 110-115 knots cruise and 13 to 15 liters per hour, who cares? John


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:54 pm    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Hi John,

Could the long wings stay up on a good thermal day?

Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On May 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, John Roedseth <roedseth(at)pt.lu> wrote:



Hi Clive & Europa Fans! I have a Tri-gear Motorglider LX-CWT, which I have been flying about 300+ hours since 2011. I bought it in 2009 as a mono-wheel, made a couple of flights, before rebuilding to tri-gear. There was an article in the Europa Flyer in the last edition before last Xmas about my experience with the motorglider.
I have a hangar space for LX-CWT, and as the plane did not fit anymore, I sold the trailer to Ian Cook. The trailer was made by Anschau in Germany, who probably still have the drawings if you need one made.
My experiences with the motorglider are largely positive. It will never be a high performance sailplane, but offers fun and above all, it is a very economical touring plane. Not as fast as the short wing, but with 110-115 knots cruise and 13 to 15 liters per hour, who cares? John




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489323#489323











- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
iancook_1(at)hotmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:30 pm    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

I had an hour soaring yesterday which was classic gliding day in the UK. A couple of 5 Knot average climbs up to 5000 ft, I could have done a lot more if I had gone earlier. My main concern is not having a one piece canopy. Visibility is not good enough to join other gliders which I find limiting. The short fuselage, large powerful all flying tail plane and long wing make tight circling hard work as it is easy to get large attitude changes. I am still learning, I have only done 50km engine off so far, but much more is possible. I have only just fitted an audio vario, flight computer, and O2 system to go wave flying in Wales. So looking forward to that.

Ian Cook
G-CBHI
Europa Mono extended wings

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On 21 May 2019, at 21:58, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



Hi John,

Could the long wings stay up on a good thermal day?

Cheers,
Pete

> On May 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, John Roedseth <roedseth(at)pt.lu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Clive & Europa Fans! I have a Tri-gear Motorglider LX-CWT, which I have been flying about 300+ hours since 2011. I bought it in 2009 as a mono-wheel, made a couple of flights, before rebuilding to tri-gear. There was an article in the Europa Flyer in the last edition before last Xmas about my experience with the motorglider.
> I have a hangar space for LX-CWT, and as the plane did not fit anymore, I sold the trailer to Ian Cook. The trailer was made by Anschau in Germany, who probably still have the drawings if you need one made.
> My experiences with the motorglider are largely positive. It will never be a high performance sailplane, but offers fun and above all, it is a very economical touring plane. Not as fast as the short wing, but with 110-115 knots cruise and 13 to 15 liters per hour, who cares? John
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489323#489323
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Motorglider Wings? Reply with quote

Thanks for the rare longwing pirep Ian!
Please do keep them coming!    do you post to social media? Youtube/Facebook etc?
Blue skies and strong thermals,

(mutually exclusive? Wink

Pete Smile

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:37 AM Ian Cook <iancook_1(at)hotmail.com (iancook_1(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ian Cook <iancook_1(at)hotmail.com (iancook_1(at)hotmail.com)>

I had an hour soaring yesterday which was classic gliding day in the UK. A couple of 5 Knot average climbs up to 5000 ft,  I could have done a lot more if I had gone earlier. My main concern is not having a one piece canopy. Visibility is not good enough to join other gliders which I find limiting. The short fuselage, large powerful all flying tail plane and long wing make tight circling hard work as it is easy to get large attitude changes. I am still learning, I have only done 50km engine off so far, but much more is possible. I have only just fitted an audio vario, flight computer, and O2 system to go wave flying in Wales. So looking forward to that.

Ian Cook
G-CBHI
Europa Mono extended wings

Sent from my iPhone

> On 21 May 2019, at 21:58, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>
>
> Hi John,
>
> Could the long wings stay up on a good thermal day?
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>> On May 21, 2019, at 4:00 PM, John Roedseth <roedseth(at)pt.lu (roedseth(at)pt.lu)> wrote:
>>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Roedseth" <roedseth(at)pt.lu (roedseth(at)pt.lu)>
>>
>> Hi Clive & Europa Fans! I have a Tri-gear Motorglider LX-CWT, which I have been flying about 300+ hours since 2011. I bought it in 2009 as a mono-wheel, made a couple of flights,  before rebuilding to tri-gear. There was an article in the Europa Flyer in the last edition before last Xmas about my experience with the motorglider.
>> I have a hangar space for LX-CWT, and as the plane did not fit anymore, I sold the trailer to Ian Cook. The trailer was made by Anschau in Germany, who probably still have the drawings if you need one made.
>> My experiences with the motorglider are largely positive. It will never be a high performance sailplane, but offers fun and above all, it is a very economical touring plane. Not as fast as the short wing, but with 110-115 knots cruise and 13 to 15 liters per hour, who cares? John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489323#489323
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

===========
pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========





- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group