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Chelton replacements
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:43 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?

David McNeill


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Kellym



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:56 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and
Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.

On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
Quote:
My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some
future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s
these days?

David McNeill


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:45 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.

> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
> David McNeill





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Ceengland



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Location: MS

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:58 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

From one who grew up in a Southern church,  YES, you can get an amen!
Now let's talk about why the FAA allows private companies to charge so much for data our taxes have already paid for.
Get BlueMail for Android
On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com>I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive. If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever. Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those. If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers. Robert Jones
Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
Quote:
On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote: My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days? David McNeillhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigahttps://matronics.com/contribution">https://matronics.com/contribution


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tomrv4



Joined: 04 Aug 2015
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:00 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Since this is the RV10 list, and RV10’s are Experimental, several of your points are incorrect with respect to that.

I have a full Garmin panel I installed myself. I have updated the software for my three G3X’s and GTN650 several times myself, and so far there has never been a charge. I have also gotten excellent email and phone support thru Garmin’s G3Xpert tech support numerous times also at no charge.

The database updates are indeed pricey. However they do have a bundle price for all my units that includes my Aera660 (which I just might accidentally use on occasion in two other planes I fly). I’m okay with the pricing in order to have all the avionics talking to each seamlessly, and have just one support team that can answer all my questions. YMMV.

Tom

Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:52 PM, Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>






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Bob Turner



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

My two cents:
First, if you fly ifr in today’s world, an ifr-TSO’d gps is almost mandatory. And unless you’re prepared to spend over $10K, you’re stuck with Garmin, which has a monopoly in the under $10K market. Fortunately, GRT and Dynon, as well as Garmin, efis units can communicate with these gps boxes.
Garmin. No question, Garmin stuff looks good. And no question, ‘Looks sell’. Garmin is also expensive. While the base efis units look competitive, Garmin forces you to buy Garmin accessories (adsb, for example) by keeping the needed software links proprietary. And Garmin accessories are over-priced, driving up the system cost. Garmin is big on data busses connecting everything together. ‘Fully integrated’ is the buzz word. I’m not convinced. I still remember when a software bug got thru, and crashed everything that was interconnected. Since there are two contrary posts, here’s how Garmin software updates work: They’re free to dealers. Now if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the software to you for free. Or not. I’ve always had to pay for updates to my 420W.
Dynon. 15 years ago I would have rated Dynon not acceptable for ifr, due to the loss of the attitude indicator if you got a bug stuck in your pitot. Those days are past. Like Garmin, Dynon encourages buyers to buy their accessories. Unlike Garmin, those extra boxes are reasonably priced.
GRT. IMHO the best engineering inside, worst looks outside. Individual RS232 lines to accessories, grt doesn’t like the failure modes of data busses. GRT interfaces with most others’ accessories, except for Garmin’s (due to proprietary software issues already mentioned). GRT efis units will maintain a useable attitude indicator even if gps and pitot data is lost - something Garmin and Dynon cannot claim. GRT is a small company, you won’t get as much hand-holding as from the others. If you want to pick different vendors for adsb, transponder, nav-com, etc., grt is what you want. I’d say this makes grt the leader in keeping the overall system cost down.


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tomrv4



Joined: 04 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:10 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Bob,

I’m a little confused by your comment:


“Now if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the software to you for free. Or not. I’ve always had to pay for updates to my 420W”
I download my GTN65XI (and G3X) software updates from the Garmin website directly. And as I mentioned in my prior post, have never been charged. Maybe the GTN series works differently than the GNS series? I set up my RV10 on the Garmin website, and (I assume) they verified all the units were installed in an experimental, and supplied by Stein. Maybe Stein gave ‘permission’ for Garmin not to charge me?
Tom
Quote:
On Jan 18, 2022, at 2:04 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>

My two cents:
First, if you fly ifr in today’s world, an ifr-TSO’d gps is almost mandatory. And unless you’re prepared to spend over $10K, you’re stuck with Garmin, which has a monopoly in the under $10K market. Fortunately, GRT and Dynon, as well as Garmin, efis units can communicate with these gps boxes.
Garmin. No question, Garmin stuff looks good. And no question, ‘Looks sell’. Garmin is also expensive. While the base efis units look competitive, Garmin forces you to buy Garmin accessories (adsb, for example) by keeping the needed software links proprietary. And Garmin accessories are over-priced, driving up the system cost. Garmin is big on data busses connecting everything together. ‘Fully integrated’ is the buzz word. I’m not convinced. I still remember when a software bug got thru, and crashed everything that was interconnected. Since there are two contrary posts, here’s how Garmin software updates work: They’re free to dealers. Now if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the software to you for free. Or not. I’ve always had to pay for updates to my 420W.
Dynon. 15 years ago I would have rated Dynon not acceptable for ifr, due to the loss of the attitude indicator if you got a bug stuck in your pitot. Those days are past. Like Garmin, Dynon encourages buyers to buy their accessories. Unlike Garmin, those extra boxes are reasonably priced.
GRT. IMHO the best engineering inside, worst looks outside. Individual RS232 lines to accessories, grt doesn’t like the failure modes of data busses. GRT interfaces with most others’ accessories, except for Garmin’s (due to proprietary software issues already mentioned). GRT efis units will maintain a useable attitude indicator even if gps and pitot data is lost - something Garmin and Dynon cannot claim. GRT is a small company, you won’t get as much hand-holding as from the others. If you want to pick different vendors for adsb, transponder, nav-com, etc., grt is what you want. I’d say this makes grt the leader in keeping the overall system cost down.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:44 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Oops, my last post should have said “GTN650XI”…

Tom

Quote:
On Jan 18, 2022, at 2:04 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:



My two cents:
First, if you fly ifr in today’s world, an ifr-TSO’d gps is almost mandatory. And unless you’re prepared to spend over $10K, you’re stuck with Garmin, which has a monopoly in the under $10K market. Fortunately, GRT and Dynon, as well as Garmin, efis units can communicate with these gps boxes.
Garmin. No question, Garmin stuff looks good. And no question, ‘Looks sell’. Garmin is also expensive. While the base efis units look competitive, Garmin forces you to buy Garmin accessories (adsb, for example) by keeping the needed software links proprietary. And Garmin accessories are over-priced, driving up the system cost. Garmin is big on data busses connecting everything together. ‘Fully integrated’ is the buzz word. I’m not convinced. I still remember when a software bug got thru, and crashed everything that was interconnected. Since there are two contrary posts, here’s how Garmin software updates work: They’re free to dealers. Now if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the software to you for free. Or not. I’ve always had to pay for updates to my 420W.
Dynon. 15 years ago I would have rated Dynon not acceptable for ifr, due to the loss of the attitude indicator if you got a bug stuck in your pitot. Those days are past. Like Garmin, Dynon encourages buyers to buy their accessories. Unlike Garmin, those extra boxes are reasonably priced.
GRT. IMHO the best engineering inside, worst looks outside. Individual RS232 lines to accessories, grt doesn’t like the failure modes of data busses. GRT interfaces with most others’ accessories, except for Garmin’s (due to proprietary software issues already mentioned). GRT efis units will maintain a useable attitude indicator even if gps and pitot data is lost - something Garmin and Dynon cannot claim. GRT is a small company, you won’t get as much hand-holding as from the others. If you want to pick different vendors for adsb, transponder, nav-com, etc., grt is what you want. I’d say this makes grt the leader in keeping the overall system cost down.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505722#505722











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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:42 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

[img]cid:020FC2E3-3894-427F-ACAB-4E356EB8F47A[/img]

Not quite current photo of my panel. I’ve added LEMO connectors for my Bose A20’s and finally put the cable in for my alternate air (the empty hole bottom left)
Robert Jones

Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

From one who grew up in a Southern church, YES, you can get an amen!
Now let's talk about why the FAA allows private companies to charge so much for data our taxes have already paid for.
Get BlueMail for Android
On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com>I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive. If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever. Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those. If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers. Robert Jones
Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote: --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
Quote:
On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote: My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days? David McNeillhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigahttps://matronics.com/contribution">https://matronics.com/contribution




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:27 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.  
The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).
Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.  Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.
It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
Cheers,
Stein

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs  then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

$99. What a deal! Pretty good discount from what's shown on Garmin's website:
Name Price (USD) Databases Included Canada Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and Terrain databases. Save $195/year
US Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and Terrain databases. Save $195/year
North America Database Bundle $549.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and Terrain databases. Save $245/year


On 1/18/2022 10:26 AM, SteinB wrote:

Quote:
This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.  


The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.


Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.


Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.


Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).


Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.  Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.


It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.


We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.


Cheers,
Stein



On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs  then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>

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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 254
Location: MS

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Below was from this page:
https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing?deviceModelID=3&aircraftSeriesID=4101#
Somewhat confusing, because if you look at the whole page, the only place IFR is mentioned is in the 'OnePak':
OnePaks
The selected device is one of several devices which qualify for Garmin OnePak database subscriptions. OnePaks offer databases for all compatible Garmin avionics in a single aircraft for one low annual price. Please see our OnePak information page for more details. Name Price (USD) Databases Included Americas Standard + FliteCharts OnePak $999.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade. Americas Standard OnePak $799.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade. Canada Standard + FliteCharts OnePak $819.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade. Canada Standard OnePak $669.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade. United States Standard + FliteCharts OnePak $819.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade. United States Standard OnePak $669.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade.

On 1/18/2022 10:47 AM, Charlie England wrote:

Quote:
$99. What a deal! Pretty good discount from what's shown on Garmin's website:
Name Price (USD) Databases Included Canada Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and Terrain databases. Save $195/year
US Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and Terrain databases. Save $195/year
North America Database Bundle $549.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and Terrain databases. Save $245/year
Now that $99 is looking like a steal.

Charlie
Quote:
On 1/18/2022 10:26 AM, SteinB wrote:

Quote:
This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.  


The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.


Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.


Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.


Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).


Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.  Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.


It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.


We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.


Cheers,
Stein



On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs  then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>

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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 185
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:00 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

David,

I removed my original AFS EFIS, GNS530W, backup D-10A, and TruTrak AP in early 2020.
I had previously installed a GTX345 for ADS-B.  I kept the transponder and added a G3X touch, GTN750xi, GMC507, Garmin servos, and a G5 for backup.
I bought everything from Stein, including a panel face and a complete wiring harness.  I opted to assemble and install the package myself.  It was a long process but service was above and beyond. I called Stein and Garmin several times for support.  No regrets.  Both were both extremely helpful and responsive.  Stein provided a complete interconnect diagram in the form of a 4' x 6' hardcopy that adorns my hangar wall.
As Stein mentioned, Garmin has a department devoted to experimentals.  A few times, especially for the 750, they passed my questions on to the certified side but all have been answered.
While shopping it was clear that a Garmin navigator was really the only choice.  I looked at all the various systems.  It came down to how seamlessly the Garmin stuff interfaces, and the fact that they use "industry standard" depictions.  My airplane partners are airline types and they seemed to recognize what they were seeing on the Garmins better than other systems.
Another driver for the design was that we all wanted dedicated buttons and knobs.  Scrolling through menus is no fun when you're saturated.  We could have remoted the transponder and autopilot but a physical, never-changing interface is a comfort.
If you use Foreflight, it connects by bluetooth for ADS-B and to transfer flight plans to/from the panel.
I couldn't be happier with how it turned out.  Before and after pictures below.
--Dave


[img]cid:ii_kykeoy820[/img][img]cid:ii_kykerpfg1[/img]


On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 2:48 PM dlm <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?

David McNeill



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Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:19 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates available and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.

I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon gives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.
Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about “Safe Taxi” as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent.
I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Garmin’s website.
I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else’s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.
I won’t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didn’t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacturers. I don’t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.
Robert Jones

Quote:
On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> wrote:

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.
The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).
Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairsdirectly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.
It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
Cheers,
Stein

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>

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===========








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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:44 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

LMGTFY… about 30 seconds of googling…

GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 software version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
add-ons
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50

manual
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf



Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates available and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.


I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon gives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.



Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about “Safe Taxi” as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent.



I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Garmin’s website.



I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else’s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.


I won’t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didn’t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacturers. I don’t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.



Robert Jones

Quote:

On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> wrote:

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.



The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.



Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.



Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.



Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).



Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.



It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.



We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.



Cheers,

Stein




On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.

> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
> David McNeill




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:02 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

You are not so lucky if you have a 430 or 530. Of course they would like us to replace our older equipment so why would they give you access to software updates an manuals.
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Jan 18, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Jonathan Beasley <pilot(at)ncflyer.com> wrote:


LMGTFY… about 30 seconds of googling…

GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 software version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
add-ons
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50

manual
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf



Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates available and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.


I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon gives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.



Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about “Safe Taxi” as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent.



I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Garmin’s website.



I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else’s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.


I won’t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didn’t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacturers. I don’t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.



Robert Jones

Quote:

On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> wrote:

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.



The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.



Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.



Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.



Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).



Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.



It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.



We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.



Cheers,

Stein




On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.

> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
> David McNeill




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:20 am    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Can your googlefoo find that $99 annual all charts/terrain/IFR subscription?

On 1/18/2022 12:44 PM, Jonathan Beasley wrote:

Quote:
(at)font-face {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}(at)font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}(at)font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}(at)font-face {font-family:"Times New Roman \(Body CS\)"; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}(at)font-face {font-family:"Open Sans"; panose-1:2 11 6 6 3 5 4 2 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Helvetica; color:windowtext; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}
LMGTFY… about 30 seconds of googling…
 
GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 software version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
add-ons
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
 
manual
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
 
 



Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates available and a list of the improvements made with each revision.  I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then. 
 

I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200.  Dynon gives me those for free.  For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing.  The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.

 

Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel.  I could care less about “Safe Taxi” as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS.  I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent. 

 

I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Garmin’s website.  

 

I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they sell now?  Will they actually answer the phone and emails?  Dynon has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else’s devices?  Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago. 
 

I won’t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light aircraft.  However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didn’t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacturers. I don’t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650. 

 

Robert Jones



Quote:

On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> (stein(at)steinair.com) wrote:

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.  

 

The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.

 

Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.

 

Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.

 

Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).

 

Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.  Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.

 

It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.

 

We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.

 

Cheers,

Stein

 

 
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs  then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:28 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

And the entire suite here for us amateurs. G3Xpert on Van's air force is super responsive.
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-01057-00
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Jonathan Beasley <pilot(at)ncflyer.com>
Date: 1/18/22 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Chelton replacements


LMGTFY… about 30 seconds of googling…

GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 software version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
add-ons
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50

manual
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf



Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates available and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.


I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon gives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.



Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about “Safe Taxi” as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent.



I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Garmin’s website.



I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else’s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.


I won’t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didn’t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacturers. I don’t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.



Robert Jones

Quote:

On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> wrote:

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.



The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when youpair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.



Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.



Install manuals? You can get any install manualyou want.



Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).



Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairsdirectlywithout needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go downloadthem.



It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.



We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.



Cheers,

Stein




On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

Quote:
On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.

> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
> David McNeill




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:34 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

Sure: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing. Pick "G3X" and
you'll note the $49 option I mentioned, then the $149 option which is $100
incrementally more for the charts/plates/rtc as I previously noted. Google
is your friend 🙂

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:30 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
wrote:

[quote] Can your googlefoo find that $99 annual all charts/terrain/IFR
subscription?

On 1/18/2022 12:44 PM, Jonathan Beasley wrote:

LMGTFY… about 30 seconds of googling…

GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143
software version 6.72
https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531

add-ons

https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50

manual

https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf

Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour
on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates
available and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could
not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for
a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the
3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software
to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do
that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it
myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that
Garmin used then.

I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year


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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 254
Location: MS

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:25 pm    Post subject: Chelton replacements Reply with quote

I don't see 'IFR'  or 'approach' listed in that price category. All the stuff that is listed is available free for the USA from multiple other vendors for their products.

On 1/18/2022 7:33 PM, SteinB wrote:

Quote:
Sure: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing.  Pick "G3X" and you'll note the $49 option I mentioned, then the $149 option which is $100 incrementally more for the charts/plates/rtc as I previously noted.  Google is your friend 🙂

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:30 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Can your googlefoo find that $99 annual all charts/terrain/IFR subscription?

On 1/18/2022 12:44 PM, Jonathan Beasley wrote:

Quote:

LMGTFY… about 30 seconds of googling…
 
GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 software version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
add-ons
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
 
manual
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
 
 



Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates available and a list of the improvements made with each revision.  I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then. 
 

I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200.  Dynon gives me those for free.  For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing.  The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.

 

Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel.  I could care less about “Safe Taxi” as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS.  I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into 5,[url=tel:000-6000]000-6000[/url] different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent. 

 

I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Garmin’s website.  

 

I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they sell now?  Will they actually answer the phone and emails?  Dynon has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else’s devices?  Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago. 
 

I won’t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light aircraft.  However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didn’t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacturers. I don’t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650. 

 

Robert Jones



Quote:

On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> (stein(at)steinair.com) wrote:

This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year from either company.  

 

The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.

 

Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.

 

Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.

 

Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).

 

Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.  Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.

 

It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.

 

We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.

 

Cheers,

Stein

 

 
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: Robert Jones <rjones560xl(at)gmail.com (rjones560xl(at)gmail.com)>

I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn’t that expensive.
If you’re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.

Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won’t. As soon as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you don’t work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don’t even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.

If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV database costs  then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn’t fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat their customers.

Robert Jones

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>

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