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Starter fuse blew x3

 
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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 185
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:22 am    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

My starter solenoid fuse keeps blowing.  The solenoid coil circuit also powers a Slick-Start. The fuse has blown three times.

It worked fine for 12 years.  About a year/100hrs ago I did a lot of re-wiring.  The fuse has blown three times now in the last 5 hours.

First time I just replaced the fuse and it worked for about 5 starts.
Second time it failed mid-rotation. I replaced the fuse and the starter solenoid.  The new solenoid  remedied a starter hesitation issue that was tolerable but noticeable.  Also, the old relay has something rattling inside; the new one does not.
After replacing the solenoid I had one very nice, rapid spin-up and start.  On the next attempt the fuse was blown.  That makes three fuses.
The system worked fine with a 5A fuse for 100 hours after the rewire.  The last fuse was a 15A.  At this point it really seems like a short. It wouldn't be that hard to just rewire the whole circuit.  

Can someone suggest anything I might be missing?
--Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:50 am    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

That is a common occurrence with many starters if the main solenoid
contacts don't make immediate good contact.  The high current (25 amp?)
pull in coil stays energized long enough to pop the fuse. With clean
contacts the high current coil stops flowing current when the contacts
close leaving the low current coil to keep the solenoid closed. 
Cleaning or replacing the solenoid contacts is required if that is what
is happening.
Ken

On 22-Jan.-22 12:21 p.m., David Saylor wrote:
Quote:
My starter solenoid fuse keeps blowing.  The solenoid coil circuit
also powers a Slick-Start. The fuse has blown three times.

It worked fine for 12 years.  About a year/100hrs ago I did a lot of
re-wiring.  The fuse has blown three times now in the last 5 hours.

First time I just replaced the fuse and it worked for about 5 starts.

Second time it failed mid-rotation. I replaced the fuse and the
starter solenoid.  The new solenoid  remedied a starter hesitation
issue that was tolerable but noticeable. Also, the old relay has
something rattling inside; the new one does not.

After replacing the solenoid I had one very nice, rapid spin-up and
start.  On the next attempt the fuse was blown. That makes three fuses.

The system worked fine with a 5A fuse for 100 hours after the rewire. 
The last fuse was a 15A.  At this point it really seems like a short.
It wouldn't be that hard to just rewire the whole circuit.

Can someone suggest anything I might be missing?

--Dave


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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 185
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

Thanks Ken.  Do you mean the contacts in the solenoid attached to the starter?  I've replaced the starter in the past but never serviced the contacts.  I can do that.

The fuse that's blowing isn't in that circuit though.  I should clarify my terms.  The fuse that's blowing powers the starter contactor.  I called it the starter solenoid.  The starter contactor coil has dedicated external terminals for the coil and isn't associated with the high current starter or solenoid wiring.  Cleaning up the solenoid contacts is doable but I think my terminology muddied the waters.  Or do you think starting current is getting pulled through the starter relay coil?

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 9:53 AM C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

That is a common occurrence with many starters if the main solenoid
contacts don't make immediate good contact.  The high current (25 amp?)
pull in coil stays energized long enough to pop the fuse. With clean
contacts the high current coil stops flowing current when the contacts
close leaving the low current coil to keep the solenoid closed. 
Cleaning or replacing the solenoid contacts is required if that is what
is happening.
Ken

On 22-Jan.-22 12:21 p.m., David Saylor wrote:
> My starter solenoid fuse keeps blowing.  The solenoid coil circuit
> also powers a Slick-Start. The fuse has blown three times.
>
> It worked fine for 12 years.  About a year/100hrs ago I did a lot of
> re-wiring.  The fuse has blown three times now in the last 5 hours.
>
> First time I just replaced the fuse and it worked for about 5 starts.
>
> Second time it failed mid-rotation. I replaced the fuse and the
> starter solenoid.  The new solenoid  remedied a starter hesitation
> issue that was tolerable but noticeable. Also, the old relay has
> something rattling inside; the new one does not.
>
> After replacing the solenoid I had one very nice, rapid spin-up and
> start.  On the next attempt the fuse was blown. That makes three fuses.
>
> The system worked fine with a 5A fuse for 100 hours after the rewire. 
> The last fuse was a 15A.  At this point it really seems like a short.
> It wouldn't be that hard to just rewire the whole circuit.
>
> Can someone suggest anything I might be missing?
>
> --Dave

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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:08 am    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

Now I realize in two messages I've called it the starter solenoid, the starter contactor, and the starter relay.  Per the Z diagrams I mean the starter contactor.  Sheesh.

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:56 AM David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Thanks Ken.  Do you mean the contacts in the solenoid attached to the starter?  I've replaced the starter in the past but never serviced the contacts.  I can do that.

The fuse that's blowing isn't in that circuit though.  I should clarify my terms.  The fuse that's blowing powers the starter contactor.  I called it the starter solenoid.  The starter contactor coil has dedicated external terminals for the coil and isn't associated with the high current starter or solenoid wiring.  Cleaning up the solenoid contacts is doable but I think my terminology muddied the waters.  Or do you think starting current is getting pulled through the starter relay coil?

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 9:53 AM C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

That is a common occurrence with many starters if the main solenoid
contacts don't make immediate good contact.  The high current (25 amp?)
pull in coil stays energized long enough to pop the fuse. With clean
contacts the high current coil stops flowing current when the contacts
close leaving the low current coil to keep the solenoid closed. 
Cleaning or replacing the solenoid contacts is required if that is what
is happening.
Ken

On 22-Jan.-22 12:21 p.m., David Saylor wrote:
> My starter solenoid fuse keeps blowing.  The solenoid coil circuit
> also powers a Slick-Start. The fuse has blown three times.
>
> It worked fine for 12 years.  About a year/100hrs ago I did a lot of
> re-wiring.  The fuse has blown three times now in the last 5 hours.
>
> First time I just replaced the fuse and it worked for about 5 starts.
>
> Second time it failed mid-rotation. I replaced the fuse and the
> starter solenoid.  The new solenoid  remedied a starter hesitation
> issue that was tolerable but noticeable. Also, the old relay has
> something rattling inside; the new one does not.
>
> After replacing the solenoid I had one very nice, rapid spin-up and
> start.  On the next attempt the fuse was blown. That makes three fuses.
>
> The system worked fine with a 5A fuse for 100 hours after the rewire. 
> The last fuse was a 15A.  At this point it really seems like a short.
> It wouldn't be that hard to just rewire the whole circuit.
>
> Can someone suggest anything I might be missing?
>
> --Dave

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:46 pm    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

David
If you are sure that fuse is not supply power to the small wire going
into the starter then what I said doesn't apply.
I'm referring to starters that have an internal solenoid and a small
wire to energize that solenoid.  It is the contacts inside the starter
that I'm referring to. On my Nippondenso starter those contacts blacken
a bit and cause the fuse to intermittently start popping about every 10
years or so which sounded like what you were describing.
Ken

On 22-Jan.-22 2:07 p.m., David Saylor wrote:
Quote:
Now I realize in two messages I've called it the starter solenoid, the
starter contactor, and the starter relay. Per the Z diagrams I mean
the starter contactor.  Sheesh.

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:56 AM David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
wrote:

Thanks Ken.  Do you mean the contacts in the solenoid attached to
the starter?  I've replaced the starter in the past but never
serviced the contacts.  I can do that.

The fuse that's blowing isn't in that circuit though. I should
clarify my terms.  The fuse that's blowing powers the starter
contactor.  I called it the starter solenoid. The starter
contactor coil has dedicated external terminals for the coil and
isn't associated with the high current starter or solenoid
wiring.  Cleaning up the solenoid contacts is doable but I think
my terminology muddied the waters.  Or do you think starting
current is getting pulled through the starter relay coil?

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 9:53 AM C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> wrote:


<yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>

That is a common occurrence with many starters if the main
solenoid
contacts don't make immediate good contact.  The high current
(25 amp?)
pull in coil stays energized long enough to pop the fuse. With
clean
contacts the high current coil stops flowing current when the
contacts
close leaving the low current coil to keep the solenoid closed.
Cleaning or replacing the solenoid contacts is required if
that is what
is happening.
Ken

On 22-Jan.-22 12:21 p.m., David Saylor wrote:
> My starter solenoid fuse keeps blowing.  The solenoid coil
circuit
> also powers a Slick-Start. The fuse has blown three times.
>
> It worked fine for 12 years.  About a year/100hrs ago I did
a lot of
> re-wiring.  The fuse has blown three times now in the last 5
hours.
>
> First time I just replaced the fuse and it worked for about
5 starts.
>
> Second time it failed mid-rotation. I replaced the fuse and the
> starter solenoid.  The new solenoid  remedied a starter
hesitation
> issue that was tolerable but noticeable. Also, the old relay
has
> something rattling inside; the new one does not.
>
> After replacing the solenoid I had one very nice, rapid
spin-up and
> start.  On the next attempt the fuse was blown. That makes
three fuses.
>
> The system worked fine with a 5A fuse for 100 hours after
the rewire.
> The last fuse was a 15A.  At this point it really seems like
a short.
> It wouldn't be that hard to just rewire the whole circuit.
>
> Can someone suggest anything I might be missing?
>
> --Dave

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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1771
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

According to this document:
http://diamondaviators.net/downloads/maintenancemanuals/SlickStart%20Booster%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf
SlickSTART™ receives input power from the switched positive terminal of
the starter motor, and should be activated only when the starter motor is
engaged. During engine start, SlickSTART™ draws a maximum of 5 amperes
-
In other words, the SlickStart should be connected to the downstream side of the starter contactor,
NOT to the start switch. So, remove the SlickStart from the small contactor terminal and connect the
SlickStart to the big fat downstream starter contactor terminal through a new inline 7.5 amp fuse.
Each electrical load should have its own fuse. If two or more loads are connected to a single fuse,
then if the fuse blows, the cause will not be known.[/b]


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:17 pm    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

At 12:56 PM 1/22/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Ken. Do you mean the contacts in the solenoid attached to the starter? I've replaced the starter in the past but never serviced the contacts. I can do that.

The fuse that's blowing isn't in that circuit though. I should clarify my terms. The fuse that's blowing powers the starter contactor. I called it the starter solenoid. The starter contactor coil has dedicated external terminals for the coil and isn't associated with the high current starter or solenoid wiring. Cleaning up the solenoid contacts is doable but I think my terminology muddied the waters. Or do you think starting current is getting pulled through the starter relay coil?


The SlickStart device is basically a capacitor discharge
ignition system with a special feature, instead of delivering
one really hot spark per timing event, it delivers a series
of sparks for each timing event. You can get a peek inside
this critter by reviewing a patent found here:

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5630384.pdf

This is an alternative to the electro-mechanical
'vibrator' known as "shower-of-sparks" that's been
around for about a century. SOS system use
ship's battery energy conducted through an
electro-mechanical interrupter (vibrator or
buzzer) to deliver a series of energy
pulses into the PRIMARY winding of a magneto
during 'points open' interval immediately following
a spark timing event. This method of spark
generation is not unlike the Kettering points/condenser/
coil system used on gazillions of cars. The
magneto's primary/secondary windings are used
as a combination energy storage and 'step up'
transformer to convert low voltage, high current
pulses in the primary into a stream of sparks at the
secondary which are conducted out to the plug(s)
by a distributor.

SlickStart does a similar thing but only uses
the step-up feature of the magneto's magnetics
to convert a stream of capacitor discharges
into the desired high voltage events at the
secondary.

The SS electronics don't really take much
power as we might guess from the recommended
size of the fuse. I've not yet found the
stated current draw in SlickStart literature
but the patent speaks to something on the
order of 3A consistent with the 5A fuse
callout.

Intermittent duty contactors can draw upwards
of 3-4 amps themselves. So the combination max
current would push a 5A fuse. I'd design for
10A in this circuit.

If one of the two loads is causing nuisance
trips of the fuse, I would suggest the following:

Put a 15A fuse in at the fuse-bus-block. Put
a temporary 7A fuse in series with the
starter contactor and SlickStart power leads
at the starter contactor coil terminal.

See if only one of those fuses blows thus
flagging a transient fault condition. If
the nuisance trips stop, try a 10A fuse at
the bus and remove the test fuses.





Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 185
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:06 pm    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

I found the problem.  There was a short about 6 inches from the fuse block. I let the wire lay up against a sheet metal edge.  Thankfully it stopped being intermittent and remained shorted during the search.

I'll change the fuse to a 10.
Joe, I'm familiar with the instructions for powering SlickStart from the heavy terminal. Years back I had a bad experience doing that.  The (new-fangled at the time) permanent magnet starter would make enough voltage spooling down that the retards stayed active. The engine would sputter but never start.  Since then I've just always wired them from the control side.  Works well.  I'd love to hear from others using a PM starter and SlickStart, wired per the instructions.  Tough lesson though, and one that's stayed with me.
Thanks for everyone's help.
--Dave
On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 12:56 PM 1/22/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Ken.  Do you mean the contacts in the solenoid attached to the starter?  I've replaced the starter in the past but never serviced the contacts.  I can do that.

The fuse that's blowing isn't in that circuit though.  I should clarify my terms.  The fuse that's blowing powers the starter contactor.  I called it the starter solenoid.  The starter contactor coil has dedicated external terminals for the coil and isn't associated with the high current starter or solenoid wiring.  Cleaning up the solenoid contacts is doable but I think my terminology muddied the waters.  Or do you think starting current is getting pulled through the starter relay coil?


  The SlickStart device is basically a capacitor discharge
  ignition system with a special feature, instead of delivering
  one really hot spark per timing event, it delivers a series
  of sparks for each timing event. You can get a peek inside
  this critter by reviewing a patent found here:

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5630384.pdf

  This is an alternative to the electro-mechanical
  'vibrator' known as "shower-of-sparks" that's been
  around for about a century. SOS system use
  ship's battery energy conducted through an
  electro-mechanical interrupter (vibrator or
  buzzer) to deliver a series of energy
  pulses into the PRIMARY winding of a magneto
  during 'points open' interval immediately following
  a spark timing event.  This method of spark
  generation is not unlike the Kettering points/condenser/
  coil system used on gazillions of cars. The
  magneto's primary/secondary windings are used
  as a combination energy storage and 'step up'
  transformer to convert low voltage, high current
  pulses in the primary into a stream of sparks at the
  secondary which are conducted out to the plug(s)
  by a distributor.

  SlickStart does a similar thing but only uses
  the step-up feature of the magneto's magnetics
  to convert a stream of capacitor discharges
  into the desired high voltage events at the
  secondary.

  The SS electronics don't really take much
  power as we might guess from the recommended
  size of the fuse. I've not yet found the
  stated current draw in SlickStart literature
  but the patent speaks to something on the
  order of 3A consistent with the 5A fuse
  callout.

  Intermittent duty contactors can draw upwards
  of 3-4 amps themselves. So the combination max
  current would push a 5A fuse. I'd design for
  10A in this circuit.

  If one of the two loads is causing nuisance
  trips of the fuse, I would suggest the following:

  Put a 15A fuse in at the fuse-bus-block. Put
  a temporary 7A fuse in series with the
  starter contactor and SlickStart power leads
  at the starter contactor coil terminal.

  See if only one of those fuses blows thus
  flagging a transient fault condition. If
  the nuisance trips stop, try a 10A fuse at
  the bus and remove the test fuses.


  


  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:49 pm    Post subject: Starter fuse blew x3 Reply with quote

Quote:
Joe, I'm familiar with the instructions for powering SlickStart from the heavy terminal. Years back I had a bad experience doing that. The (new-fangled at the time) permanent magnet starter would make enough voltage spooling down that the retards stayed active. The engine would sputter but never start. Since then I've just always wired them from the control side. Works well. I'd love to hear from others using a PM starter and SlickStart, wired per the instructions. Tough lesson though, and one that's stayed with me.

Interesting. The patent wiring shows powering the SS from
the same source as starter contactor coil. Given the
relatively 'delicate' nature of the electronics in
the SS, I would think that the more benign energy source
would be preferred.

I can perceive no advantage for powering from the
motor side of the starter contactor.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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