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FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS

 
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

Currently studying fusible links. It's straight forward circuit protection but I'm confused about an example in your book. The third paragraph of Note 4 on page Z7 references fusible links in the shunts on figure Z14, and the fusible lengths are clearly shown in the diagram. However, in the 5th paragraph you reference the fusible-link in the AUX alternator B-lead feed but I don't see any such link in the diagram. I do see what appears to be a fuse labeled MAX30 at the aux batt contactor. Is this the fusible link?

While the MAX30 is fusible circuit protection it is not, by definition,
a fusible link. It is a member of a robust MAX family of plastic
fuses.

Note 10 says alternator B-lead protection is best done with current limiters. Is there any difference between a current limiter and a fusible link?

Only in their general time-to-function characteristics.
Fusible links are generally rather slow to operate and
are intended to stand off effects of a 'hard' (typically
battery driven) faults. They are quite robust and unlike
fuses, are not vulnerable to thermal "hammering".

Yes, a MAX30 fuse is shown in the b-lead of a 20A alternator
(de-rated by 30% or so). Fusible links are generally
preferred in this application. Stone simple, low parts
count, spliced into the feeder with reliability exceeded
only by the wire itself. But de-rated fuse serves the
same design goal even tho clumsy to implement
compared to the fusible link.

And finally, help me understand the fusible link between the buss and master switch in Z11, but there is no fusible link in this circuit in Z12.

Are you talking about the link protecting the feeder
out to the alternator field circuit breaker? There's
a link in that feeder for both drawings.

A lot to absorb, trying to understand as best I can. Thanks again.

No problem.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:41 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

At 06:25 PM 4/22/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Bob. Appreciate the explanations. I suspected the fusible link is used due to it being
more resilient or as you say slower to operate.

In general, fuses and circuit breakers are more sensitive to
moderate overload and will operate in seconds to tens of seconds.

Current limiters (ANL, ANN, MAN, etc) look like fuses but thermally
tailored to withstand high transient loads. They are generally used
to protect feeders to downstream protection like fuses and/or
circuit breakers where you don't want the upstream protection
to operate because of a hard fault on one of the individually
protected, downstream feeders. Fusible links fall into that
same category of protection.


Quote:
And you answered my follow up question before I could ask it.
If a slow operating device is preferred, why not use a slow blow fuse?

That's essentially what a current limiter is . . . it's
a fuse with a 2 to 3 times overhead for operating current
and a much longer thermal time constant.

Quote:
Fusible link easy to install compared to the clumsy fuse. Duly noted.

Yup. You can now buy fusible link wire in the automotive
parts stores . . . ordinary copper wire insulated with
Hypalon or similar insulation resistant to toxic destruction
due to melting wire within. Neat stuff.

https://tinyurl.com/yy7xy8wd

Quote:
But in diagram Z12 I still don't see a fusible link in the circuit that feeds the alternator field. What am I missing? I see a 5A field breaker at the main power buss. From there a 20AWG wire feeds tab 5 of the master switch. From tab 4 of the master switch a 20AWG wire feeds pin 6 of the B and C LR-3 controller. A 20AWG wire from pin 4 of the controller feeds the alternator field. I don't see a fusible link in this circuit as I do in diagram Z11. The system in Z11 uses fuses and Z12 used CB's. Does this make any difference?

Here are the relevant excerpts from Z-11 and Z-12. There's
a fusible link upstream of alternator field breakers
in both diagrams. Z-11 is an older drawing that suggests
a '4AWG-smaller', DIY fusible link while Z-12
suggests commercial-off-the-shelf, fusible link wire.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
Hi Bob,

... help me understand the fusible link between the buss and master switch in Z11, but there is no fusible link in this circuit in Z12.


The latest Z12 rev N shows a fuse link for the feeder from main bus to field CB. The previous rev M which is in the latest AeroElectric Connection book rev 12B shows the field CB directly on the bus. Fuseblock or busbar and CBs (acres of breakers)... it's a culture war and Bob in in the fuseblock camp. I'm guessing the older Z12 reflects a production aircraft.

Find the latest Z templates in the Adobe folder at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/
[/quote]


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Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
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rv8iator



Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Newberg, OR

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:23 pm    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

Quote:
Bob et al...



Is there  a min/max length for fusible links?   With either fusible link wire or
fabricated using the method described in "The Connection"?
...chris 
Quote:
Quote:

 In general, fuses and circuit breakers are more sensitive to
 moderate overload and will operate in seconds to tens of seconds
 That's essentially what a current limiter is . . . it's
 a fuse with a 2 to 3 times overhead for operating current
 and a much longer thermal time constant.

Quote:
Fusible link easy to install compared to the clumsy fuse.  Duly noted.

 Here are the relevant excerpts from Z-11 and Z-12. There's
 a fusible link upstream of alternator field breakers
 in both diagrams. Z-11 is an older drawing that suggests
 a '4AWG-smaller', DIY fusible link while Z-12
 suggests commercial-off-the-shelf, fusible link wire.



  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"



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johnbright



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Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

rv8iator wrote:
Is there a min/max length for fusible links? With either fusible link wire or fabricated using the method described in "The Connection"?

...chris 


Note 4 says 4 to 6" and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html says 5 to 6".


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:31 pm    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

At 09:47 PM 4/23/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>


rv8iator wrote:
> Is there a min/max length for fusible links? With either fusible link wire or fabricated using the method described in "The Connection"?
>
> ...chrisÂ


Note 4 says 4 to 6" and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html says 5 to 6".

There is no 'maximum' length . . . i.e. no limits
other than what you'd put on a wire of that same
gage. The minimum is not terribly critical but
we do want to exploit the tendency for a fusing
conductor to open up pretty close to the center.

The time it takes is somewhat related to length.
Current generated heat along the conductor's length
propagates outward and longitudinally with the
center being most remote from heat-sinking
qualities of the ends. You can take a clue from
the pre-assembled fusible links found in
car parts stores. I would judge the assembly
shown to be on the order of 9" long. I don't
think I've ever seen one on a car less than
6".

I think a longer link may open faster. Somewhere
around here I've got a test fixture I built up
to demonstrate and measure fusible link
performance . . . may dig that up and finish
the experiment.

I saw a builder's contactors installation
wherein he used fusible link wire to make
a connection between the power posts on two
contactors . . . no splice to extending
wire.




Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:10 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

At 08:22 PM 4/23/2022, you wrote:

Quote:
Bob et al...

Is there a min/max length for fusible links? With either fusible link wire or

fabricated using the method described in "The Connection"?

The DIY fusible link was suggested about 20 years
ago when I was looking for a cleaner way to protect
ammeter shut instrument wires. BePiCesMo guys used
to favor a dual, glass cartridge fuse holder mounted
right at the shunt. Pieces of 4AWG smaller wire
under fiberglass seemed much neater.

Mind you, fusible links were already widely used
in the automotive world at this time but the bulk
wire was not readily obtainable nor had the idea
germinated in the aviation community for replacing
current limiters with specialty wire.

Fusible link wire has an interesting history. Waayy
back when, the electric locomotive industry was
looking for an insulation that minimized the
toxicity of smoke should a faulted wire burn.
Persons working in closed environments with very
high current wiring were at risk. Railroad and
mine locomotives (and I suspect submarines) were
prime markets for such a material.

I think it was DuPont that came up with a material
called "Hypalon" which has now has many competing
products. The smoke produced was more to the liking
of the Marlboro Man than the death row executioner.

We are now favored with a host of suppliers for
application specific fusible link wire. The
ability to eliminate the mechanically bulky
current limiters and certain fuses is attractive;
much simpler than the original DIY techniques
offered some years ago.

Keep in mind that fusible links (beefy and slow)
are NOT one-for-one replacements for fuses (agile
and fast). They are attractive alternatives to
current limiters.

I poked around on Youtube for examples of
fusible link replacement and did see one
example of very short (3" or so) factory
installed fusible links albeit poorly. The
Youtube author was replacing links where
joints had become intermittent due to
corrosion (!!!!). In our world, fusible link
installations should offer no greater risk
of failure than an equivalent hunk of quality
wire. The reason for having to make that
video was, in my not so humble opinion,
unforgivable. Just because the product sails
under the flag of a respected brand does not
automatically insure good craftsmanship.

As an aside, be wary of well meaning youtuber's
work product. I've gleaned many useful
insights from the works of DIY video producers.
I've also observed astounding ignorance of
the physics for the processes being demonstrated.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:07 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

 
Quote:

   I saw a builder's contactors installation
   wherein he used fusible link wire to make
   a connection between the power posts on two
   contactors . . . no splice to extending
   wire.




  Bob . . .

Guilty. Wink
The top pair of contactors control the B-leads of two internally regulated alternators; the blue wires are fusible links to protect the red B-lead wires seen leaving the contactors.
Without a long drawn-out explanation, the reason one is on the 'hot' side of the master is that the plane has a fully electrically dependent engine; I wanted access to an alternator even if the master contactor failed. (Engine bus primary feeder is also fed from the hot side.)
Charlie


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rv8iator



Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Newberg, OR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:12 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

Bob et al... 

I garner from your explanation that a fusible link of any length will perform as intended. (To open a circuit).
But the longer length will open near the center due to localized thermal characteristics. 
Is there a downside to a shorter length other than it may burn through near to or at the connection to
the feeder?  Thus we want to avoid this condition?
Just trying to better understand the preferred opening mode.
If the feeder connection is robust then the fusible link will open somewhere along its length
as its resistance is greater than that of the feeder.  Regardless of length.  
It seems what we strive to avoid is heating and degradation of the feeder wire
and/or connection during the over-current event?
Your expertise, experimentation and sharing of knowledge is very much appreciated !
Chris
 
 
 

Quote:

Quote:
Bob et al...

Is there a min/max length for fusible links? With either fusible link wire or

fabricated using the method described in "The Connection"?

  The DIY fusible link was suggested about 20 years
  ago when I was looking for a cleaner way to protect
  ammeter shut instrument wires. BePiCesMo guys used
  to favor a dual, glass cartridge fuse holder mounted
  right at the shunt. Pieces of 4AWG smaller wire
  under fiberglass seemed much neater.

  Mind you, fusible links were already widely used
  in the automotive world at this time but the bulk
  wire was not readily obtainable nor had the idea
  germinated in the aviation community for replacing
  current limiters with specialty wire.

  Fusible link wire has an interesting history. Waayy
  back when, the electric locomotive industry was
  looking for an insulation that minimized the
  toxicity of smoke should a faulted wire burn.
  Persons working in closed environments with very
  high current wiring were at risk. Railroad and
  mine locomotives (and I suspect submarines) were
  prime markets for such a material.

  I think it was DuPont that came up with a material
  called "Hypalon" which has now has many competing
  products. The smoke produced was more to the liking
  of the Marlboro Man than the death row executioner.

  We are now favored with a host of suppliers for
  application specific fusible link wire. The
  ability to eliminate the mechanically bulky
  current limiters and certain fuses is attractive;
  much simpler than the original DIY techniques
  offered some years ago.

  Keep in mind that fusible links (beefy and slow)
  are NOT one-for-one replacements for fuses (agile
  and fast). They are attractive alternatives to
  current limiters.
 
  I poked around on Youtube for examples of
  fusible link replacement and did see one
  example of very short (3" or so) factory
  installed fusible links albeit poorly. The
  Youtube author was replacing links where
  joints had become intermittent due to
  corrosion (!!!!). In our world, fusible link
  installations should offer no greater risk
  of failure than an equivalent hunk of quality
  wire. The reason for having to make that
  video was, in my not so humble opinion,
  unforgivable. Just because the product sails
  under the flag of a respected brand does not
  automatically insure good craftsmanship.

  As an aside, be wary of well meaning youtuber's
  work product. I've gleaned many useful
  insights from the works of DIY video producers.
  I've also observed astounding ignorance of
  the physics for the processes being demonstrated.


  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:02 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

Quote:
Is there a downside to a shorter length other than it may burn through near to or at the connection to
the feeder? Thus we want to avoid this condition?
Just trying to better understand the preferred opening mode.

I'd like to believe that the manufacturer
of that automobile with 3" links tested their
design decision. Intuitively, one must believe
that the 'short' hunk of 4-AWG-Smaller wire is
a dominating weak-link that will indeed open
faster than the protected feeder.

Quote:
If the feeder connection is robust then the fusible link will open somewhere along its length
as its resistance is greater than that of the feeder. Regardless of length.
It seems what we strive to avoid is heating and degradation of the feeder wire
and/or connection during the over-current event?

Agreed. I've got a couple of 100AH batteries
on my maintainer bench for a neighbor. One
of these would offer a really good energy source
for a fusible link demonstration/experiment. I'll
poke around and see if I can find all the 'stuff'
to lash this up.

Quote:
Your expertise, experimentation and sharing of knowledge is very much appreciated !

Thank you.

If one strives to advance the state of the
art and science, knowledge must be quantified,
shared, debated, refined and demonstrated. Lacking
any of these endeavors, the value of that
knowledge is diminished if not extinguished.
I've observed comments about the 'experimental'
nature of our work-product . . . "isn't that
a dangerous hobby?" they ask.

To the contrary, the advancement of every
art is a study in properties of materials,
management of energy and refinement of
process . . . experimentation is the very
essence of that last quality.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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rv8iator



Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Newberg, OR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:16 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

Quote:
Looking forward to the result of your efforts in better understanding the properties of these devices
 
 ...Live to learn.  Learning is a lifelong endeavor.  Knowledge is a social construct. 
Quote:

Wisdom is gained by the application of curiosity, judgement and reflection...

Chris
Quote:

  To the contrary, the advancement of every
  art is a study in properties of materials,
  management of energy and refinement of
  process . . . experimentation is the very
  essence of that last quality.


  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"


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fasilpereira



Joined: 17 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

Regarding those Fusible Link Wires, is there any source for a 24 AWG version of it? I could only find it on 20AWG and up (or down? Very Happy ) gauges.

I was looking insterested in installing it on the shunt sense wires, but I think that using 16 AWG (20AWG minus 4AWG) an overkill...

Thank you,

Fabricio


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

At 02:33 PM 4/25/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)yahoo.com>

Regarding those Fusible Link Wires, is there any source for a 24 AWG version of it? I could only find it on 20AWG and up (or down? Very Happy ) gauges.

I was looking insterested in installing it on the shunt sense wires, but I think that using 16 AWG (20AWG minus 4AWG) an overkill...

Agreed. No commercial fusible link wire smaller than 20 that
I know of. Make yours out of 22AWG and cover in two layers
of heat shrink. I'll test that configuration along with
the COTS wires . . . but I'm confident the work-around
will be fine.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: FUSIBLE LINKS & CURRENT LIMITERS Reply with quote

For DIY fusible link wire, you might want some high temperature silicone impregnated fiberglass sleeve. It's available in several diameters as small as 3/16" from a U.S. seller...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/194849574612

...or as small as 1mm if you don't mind ordering from China and waiting awhile:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/224016110766

For all eBay results use the search terms, "silicone fiberglass wire (sleeve,tube) -hose" (without quotes).


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