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johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

The Monkworkz 30A PM alternator is in production. I'd say at this time it's for early-adopters. Ref VAF thread https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=206179



It cannot be connected directly to the battery because it presents a passive load that will drain the battery. “there is a resistive voltage divider on the output that keeps tabs on the output voltage and that will over time drag your battery down”



It is said to start and work well with battery disconnected.



Question for Bob and others… best way to incorporate it into Z101? Simply a 40A automotive relay between alternator and battery?



You can download the installation manual at https://monkworkz.com/

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:24 pm Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  Quote: 	
		  It cannot be connected directly to the battery because it presents a passive load that will drain the battery. “there is a resistive voltage divider on the output that keeps tabs on the output voltage and that will over time drag your battery down” 	


   Okay, as a MAIN alternator, it would drive the main

   bus. As a standby alternator, it would need a relay

   to isolated from the battery.



  	  Quote: 	
		  BTW it is said to start and work well with battery disconnected. 	


   Great!



  	  Quote: 	
		  Question for Bob and others… best way to incorporate it into Z101?

 Simply a 40A automotive relay between alternator and battery? 	


   I believe so . . . or fat diode. This could be easily

   explored/confirmed. 



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 389
Location: MS

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 4:04 pm Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

On 5/17/2022 3:23 PM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                 	  Quote: 	
		  It           cannot be           connected directly to the battery because it presents a           passive load that           will drain the battery. â€œthere is a resistive voltage           divider on the           output that keeps tabs on the output voltage and that will           over time drag           your battery downâ€ 	
       

           Okay, as a MAIN alternator, it would drive the main

           bus. As a standby alternator, it would need a relay

           to isolated from the battery.

         

          	  Quote: 	
		  BTW it is said to           start and work           well with battery disconnected. 	
         

           Great!

         

          	  Quote: 	
		  Question for Bob           and othersâ€¦           best way to incorporate it into Z101?

           Simply a 40A automotive relay between alternator and           battery? 	
         

           I believe so . . . or fat diode. This could be easily

           explored/confirmed. 

         

                

             Bob . . .

           

             Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black           boxes

             survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

             out of that stuff?"

                     	
     If OV protection is used, You'd need a relay on the output anyway. 

     

     I took a quick look at their web page, and it seems a safe bet that     it's a high output brushless DC motor (really inverter driven AC)     like you'd see on a big RC plane, that's being used as a generator     instead. I'd also bet that there's a little wide-ratio planetary     gearbox in the nose, to get the magnet spinning fast enough to make     that kind of power when mounted on the low rpm vacuum pad. Anyone     know if it's an 'outrunner' or 'inrunner'? I'm thinking something     similar to this:

 https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-l3010b-1300-brushless-motor-420w.html

     

     

     On a completely different subject, is anyone having an issue like     mine, on receiving emails from the list?

     I frequently see the reply (as this one, which is Bob's reply), but     I never see the original message unless I log into the Matronics     *forum* & find the thread. This is a fairly common problem for     me; I'm set up for receiving every post via email. I never find the     original post in my spam/junk folders.

     

     Charlie

     

     	          		Virus-free. www.avast.com 		 	 [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]

_________________
Charlie

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  Ceengland wrote: 	
		  On a completely different subject, is anyone having an issue like mine, on receiving emails from the list?  I frequently see the reply (as this one, which is Bob's reply), but I never see the original message unless I log into the Matronics forum & find the thread. This is a fairly common problem for me; I'm set up for receiving every post via email. I never find the original post in my spam/junk folders. 	


Yes, I've had a lot of problems with the email echo system too.  Multiple duplicate emails, posts delivered late or out of order, missing posts, etc.  I switched to the daily digest hoping it would be less problematic, but it's no better.  I often get nothing for days, then get several digests in one day, out of chronological order.  I've emailed Matt to enquire about these problems but received no reply.



I finally gave up on the emails; I just put a link to the A-E List on my browser's start page and I check the forum periodically.  I already check the EAA and Kitfox forums, so it's no great burden to look here as well.



As I'm sure you've noticed, there are other problems.  When members make posts that include an image or PDF, they often come through email as fifteen or twenty pages of random characters instead of an attachment.  The forum frequently splits threads into multiple instances with nearly identical subject lines, making it very difficult to follow or search older content.  The new post link on threads with new posts only works once; if you click it on a second thread, it returns an error saying there are no new posts.



I suppose there's a reason that the Matronics empire appears to run on a ca.2005 version of the phpBB forum.  It's an open source package and updates are free, so we can only guess what that reason might be...

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 6:01 am Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  Ceengland wrote: 	
		  If OV protection is used, You'd need a relay on the output anyway. 

     

... I'd also bet that there's a little wide-ratio planetary     gearbox in the nose, to get the magnet spinning fast enough to make     that kind of power when mounted on the low rpm vacuum pad.



Anyone know if it's an 'outrunner' or 'inrunner'?...

     

     

	




OV protection is in the regulator.



It’s an outrunner, the outside case spins.



No gearbox in the Monkworkz PM alternator: “Yep, it's direct drive, the only thing between the generator shaft and the vacuum spline gear is a shear coupling. Bill at Monkworkz.com”

min install schematic from IM of 9 Oct 2022.jpg

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min install schematic from IM of 9 Oct 2022.jpg

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

Last edited by johnbright on Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:05 am Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  Quote: 	
		  If OV protection is used, You'd need a relay on the output anyway. 	


  Here's their installation data:



  http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Monkworkx/MZ-30L%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Manual%202021.pdf

 

   Seems it has a 'outrunner' style magnet housing

   like most PM alternators. It's a 3 phase machine

   which goes a long way toward achieving this power

   density . . . along with forced air cooling.



  	  Quote: 	
		  I took a quick look at their web page, and it seems a safe bet that it's a high output brushless DC motor (really inverter driven AC) like you'd see on a big RC plane, that's being used as a generator instead. I'd also bet that there's a little wide-ratio planetary gearbox in the nose, to get the magnet spinning fast enough to make that kind of power when mounted on the low rpm vacuum pad. Anyone know if it's an 'outrunner' or 'inrunner'? I'm thinking something similar to this:

  https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-l3010b-1300-brushless-motor-420w.html 	


   Yeah, adapting one of those products to this application

   would require a step-up gearbox . . . which is

   exceedingly difficult if the driven mass has much

   rotational inertia. We note that the Monkworks

   machine's outside diameter is quite small compared

   to other products . . . barely larger than the

   footprint of the vacuum pump pad.



   The companion electronics has ov protection built

   in. It also needs forced air cooling . . . not

   surprising given it's small volume and footprint  



 



  	  Quote: 	
		  On a completely different subject, is anyone having an issue like mine, on receiving emails from the list?

 I frequently see the reply (as this one, which is Bob's reply), but I never see the original message unless I log into the Matronics *forum* & find the thread. This is a fairly common problem for me; I'm set up for receiving every post via email. I never find the original post in my spam/junk folders. 	


   Outside my wheelhouse. You might drop a note to

   byte thrasher in charge, Matt D and apprise him

   of your issues.



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 10:07 am Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I took a quick look at their web page, and it seems a safe bet that

 it's a high output brushless DC motor (really inverter driven AC) like

 you'd see on a big RC plane, that's being used as a generator instead. 	


   Charlie,



   It occurred to me that I'd not wandered through

   the offerings in RC motors for some time. A client

   asked me to sift through the catalogs about 10

   years ago with the thought of adapting a 'tiny'

   motor to an actuator design. We didn't find anything

   useful the task at that time.



   Revisiting the market today reveals some motors

   on the BEEFY end of the spectrum with current

   and Kv ratings that just MIGHT lend themselves

   to a direct drive, 3 phase, pm alternator design.



   Some interesting finds:



  https://tinyurl.com/yy892euu



  https://tinyurl.com/39jtnhyj



  https://tinyurl.com/2p8stwb7



  https://tinyurl.com/4kcmkazf



   It might be that none of these would be

   optimal candidates, at least they suggest

   some possibilities.



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245

Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

Paul Dye's write-up on the Monkworkz MZ-30L:



https://www.kitplanes.com/the-monkworkz-mz-30l-direct-drive-generator/

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

I exchanged emails with Bill Judge at Monkworkz. He expressed concern the battery alternator's regulator could register an OV event if the battery alternator relay was opened while the alternator is delivering significant current. I brainstormed several configurations and posted them at https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EP07O-9srhEHeR6za8DwbJBh0cdGIK50?usp=sharing

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:30 am Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

At 03:43 PM 6/6/2022, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>



 I exchanged emails with Bill Judge at Monkworkz. He expressed concern the battery alternator's regulator could register an OV event if the battery alternator relay was opened while the alternator is delivering significant current. What I came up with is a progressive off / enable / on switch for the regulator and a Schottky diode to shunt any voltage spike to the battery. Ref attached pdf and its notes 2, 7, and 8. 	


    This posting seems to 'worry' about a transient

    event that is not well understood. Exactly what

    are the conditions that set up the possibility

    for the adverse event (spike to the battery?)

    What is the energy signature of the event (watt-seconds,

    duration) and what components of the system are

    at-risk for having suffered the event?



    Has the event been demonstrated on the bench? 



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:41 am Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

The narrative speaks to a 'backup alternator mode'

 and a voltage reduction option in the connector wiring?



 What for? Suppose you're flying along sipping coffee

 and listening to your favorite tracks on the stereo

 and the main alternator quits.



 What, if any, emergent condition exists that drives

 a requirement for automatic change-over to the

 standby alternator? If you've incorporated this

 feature in your system, how will you know that the

 change-over has taken place?



 Is there a requirement for proper sequencing of

 switches for normal operations? My design goals

 strive to generate no hazard to system components

 by a mis-placement of switches. Is it perceived

 that the proposed system has such a risk? Has

 the risk been demonstrated on the bench?



 



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:11 am Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

The diode parallels the relay contacts.  When the contacts open, the diode will carry full alternator

output which will destroy the diode which is rated at only 4 amps.  Why open the relay in flight?

I interpret Bob's posts to mean that you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:37 am Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

At 09:11 AM 6/7/2022, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 The diode parallels the relay contacts.  When the contacts open, the diode will carry full alternator

 output which will destroy the diode which is rated at only 4 amps.  Why open the relay in flight? 	


    . . . or more to the point, under what conditions is

    the relay energized/de-energized? Why would one have

    this relay closed in normal flight?



    Recall that the 'auto switch over' feature for the standby

    alternator was a concession to TC aircraft manufacturers

    when the legacy pad-driven alternators were being

    considered for Beech and Cessna products.



    I argued that it was an unnecessary complication and

    expense added to a simple solution. OBAM aircraft are

    EXPECTED to have active notification of low voltage.

    The time between notification and pilot action to

    to implement plan-b is not a critical issue. Whether

    this is 10 seconds or 10 minutes is of no significant

    consequence.



    So why add the electronics to automate the process?

    Note that Z-101 suggests the standby alternator have

    only a pilot operated on/off switch and no

    ov protection! You're going to pre-flight test this

    hardware and then let it sit idle for reminder of

    flight unless needed. This means that the system spends

    99.999 percent of it's service life doing nothing yet

    it is tested every few hours at the beginning of each

    flight cycle.



    Given the ever-improving durability of contemporary

    main alternators, it seems likely that most s/b 

    alternators will never see service under duress.



    So when the lo volts light comes on, finish your

    cup of coffee. Wipe the cup out before you screw it

    back on the thermos bottle and then set about

    configuring switches for plan-b.



    As to the ever popular worries about spikes, surges

    and things that go bump in the night . . . question

    the narrator for when and how these phenomenon

    occur and what tests were conducted to verify

    their existence, energy signature and risk.



    "Spikes to the battery" have no qualification or

    quantification in physics. As Lord Kelvin once

    opined, "If you can't talk about the thing in

    terms of numbers, then you don't really know

    much about it."



    From the time I began my career in aviation electrics

    circa 1975 until the present time, there have been

    consistent rumors that engine starters loose

    horrible electronic gremlins onto the system. I've

    instrumented dozens of aircraft with data acquisition

    systems since then and never captured such a beast

    in the wild.



    Here on the List years ago, we explored the propagation

    of inductive energy discharge and discovered that

    even without suppression, those events do not

    propagate past the contacts of the controlling device . . .

    effects on the remainder of the system were barely

    observable and of no consequence.



    But more to the point, hundreds of other researchers

    have concurred in their creation of documents like

    Mil-STD-704 and DO-160. These documents define the

    demonstrated limits to environmental/electrical

    stress designers EXPECT to see in aircraft so that

    those can be confidently accounted for in design

    and integration of new products.



    "Starter spikes" don't even get honorable mention.



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:57 am Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

If it is desired to shut off the alternator during flight and there is concern 

about causing an over voltage event, just close the throttle first.



Speaking of a thermos bottle, never fill one with boiling hot coffee that is intended

to be opened during flight. Due to the lower atmospheric pressure at altitude, the very hot coffee

will turn to instant steam, burning the pilot and filling the cockpit with fog which fogs the windows.

_________________
Joe Gores

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:52 am Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

I created some pdf files "Elec Schem with Monkworkz MZ-30L as backup and Z101 as a template...", too large to attach so https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wCRqBknCU6JXPrNTm0PMvXaXHlPn2v2A?usp=sharing



Bob:

I don't understand why the regulator would generate a voltage spike if disconnected from the battery while delivering a significant level of current.

Bill Judge of Monkworkz said "It's possible that the OVP would be triggered by switching off the relay when there is significant current flowing. No damage will occur but you only get three of those per engine start. Around 15.3 V is where an OV event is registered, and the duration needs to be on the order of 10 ns or more, way faster than DO-160 requires."

I was trying to address his concern by adding the diode across the relay.

The voltage spike has not been demonstrated on the bench to my knowledge.

Alternator backup mode:

I understand that it's not necessary.

The crew will get an indication on the EFIS or panel light if the alternator wakes up from backup mode when the voltage drops to 13.7. Ref the Active High connection on the regulator.



The only configuration that has any sort of switch sequencing SOP is Configuration 1 where the progressive battery alternator off / connect / on switch should not be moved quickly from on to off in order that the hypothetical voltage spike would not be created. If this switch is moved quickly from on to off and if the hypothetical voltage spike is a real thing, the diode across the relay will shunt said spike to the battery.

Joe: AFAIK the 1N5822 diode is rated at 3A (IF(AV) under certain standard conditions) which is OK because the alternator is off when the relay contacts are open.



I don't have a Monkworkz alternator to experiment with rather I'm trying to plan ahead in case this product proves itself in the field. I see it as being in the early adopter stage at present.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:41 pm Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

At 10:57 AM 6/8/2022, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 If it is desired to shut off the alternator during flight and there is concern 

 about causing an over voltage event, just close the throttle first.



 Speaking of a thermos bottle, never fill one with boiling hot coffee that is intended

 to be opened during flight. Due to the lower atmospheric pressure at altitude, the very hot coffee

 will turn to instant steam, burning the pilot and filling the cockpit with fog which fogs the windows. 	


   Airplanes I fly don't achieve that kind of

   atmospheric delta-p. Further, in recognition

   of McD's famous pension for serving drive-up

   coffee capable of bodily harm . . . I don't

   bottle it up that hot for terrestrial travel

   much less at 10K (boiling point 195F).



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:01 pm Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob:

 I don't understand why the regulator would generate a voltage spike if disconnected from the battery while delivering a significant level of current.

 	


   This is an oft cited but seldom encountered

   condition which the automotive circle call an

   "alternator load dump" event. The worst-case

   pre-event condition is as follows:



   You have a really robust alternator (modern

   vehicle loads often call for alternators in 100A

   class!).



   Your battery is badly discharged . . . maybe you

   ran it down having left something on over night.



   You get the car started and the alternator goes

   to work stuffing energy back into the battery . . .

   i.e. regulator running nearly full field in

   an attempt to get things back in order.



   So now we have a BATTERY demanding alternator

   output while vehicle demands are low.



   Now . . . for what ever reason . . . the battery

   becomes disconnected from the vehicle's distribution

   system. The alternator suddenly becomes lightly

   loaded and the battery's willingness to absorb

   alternator transient surges is gone.



   Take a peek at this document from Texas Instruments:



  https://tinyurl.com/2ymdwrcj



   Figure 4 illustrates the automotive load dump

   parameters, this is an analog to the DO-160

   40v surge favored by aviation in 14v systems.



   Figure 3 illustrates the condition that precipitates

   the event.



   Figure 8 illustrates performance of a over-voltage

   disconnect circuit (figure 6) when placed in

   the supply lead of an at risk product.



   We had a hopeful supplier to Beech offering

   heated seat inserts being proposed for some of

   our high-end heavy-iron. They were unable to

   pass the 80v surge for qualification on our

   28v aircraft. I suggested and almost identical

   but simpler h.v. disconnect circuit which they

   incorporated with success . . . don't know if

   they ever made it onto our airplanes.



   Long story short, what is the likelihood of

   suffering a disconnect of depleted battery

   at rpms high enough to be producing heavy output

   thus setting up an alternator load-dump event?



   Further, the automotive load-dump ALWAYS involves

   a wound-field alternator driven by a regulator

   with a purposefully limited response struggling

   to bring a fully fielded, suddenly unloaded 

   alternator back under control while it's

   b-lead is still connected to potential

   victims of the o.v. event.



   It's not clear to me how a PM alternator's

   rectifier/regulator would suffer a similar

   characteristic with the 'b-lead' relay.

   



  	  Quote: 	
		  Bill Judge of Monkworkz said "It's possible that the OVP would be triggered by switching off the relay when there is significant current flowing. No damage will occur but you only get three of those per engine start. Around 15.3 V is where an OV event is registered, and the duration needs to be on the order of 10 ns or more, way faster than DO-160 requires." 	


   This makes no sense to me. Switching off the

   'b-lead' relay can suddenly unload the alternator

   which will undoubtedly experience some magnitude

   of load dump surge. But where will it go and

   what risk for damage exists? He of all people

   should know.



  	  Quote: 	
		  I was trying to address his concern by adding the diode across the relay.

 The voltage spike has not been demonstrated on the bench to my knowledge. 	


   Perhaps it would be well for him to explore this

   question?



  	  Quote: 	
		  Alternator backup mode:I understand that it's not necessary.

 The crew will get an indication on the EFIS or panel light if the alternator wakes up from backup mode when the voltage drops to 13.7. Ref the Active High connection on the regulator.



 The only configuration that has any sort of switch sequencing SOP is Configuration 1 where the progressive battery alternator off / connect / on switch should not be moved quickly from on to off in order that the hypothetical voltage spike would not be created. If this switch is moved quickly from on to off and if the hypothetical voltage spike is a real thing, the diode across the relay will shunt said spike to the battery. 	


   I'm concerned that any such band-aid would be

   useful along with any requirement placed on

   the pilot for positioning of switches.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Joe: AFAIK the 1N5822 diode is rated at 3A (IF(AV) under certain standard conditions) which is OK because the alternator is off when the relay contacts are open. 	


   If it's 'off' where does the surge come from,

   how high, how long and if the diode were not

   there, what are the risks?



  	  Quote: 	
		  I don't have a Monkworkz alternator to experiment with rather I'm trying to plan ahead in case this product proves itself in the field. I see it as being in the early adopter stage at present.

 	


   If you're being recruited as part of the Monkworkz

   product development team, then one would want to

   do some bench testing to confirm/deny the hypothesis.

   I've got a AN20000 drive pad test stand whereupon

   such questions could be explored.



 



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

AN20000_Test_StandS.jpg

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248.84 KB

Viewed:

7456 Time(s)

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob:

   If you're being recruited as part of the Monkworkz

   product development team, then one would want to

   do some bench testing to confirm/deny the hypothesis.

   I've got a AN20000 drive pad test stand whereupon

   such questions could be explored. 	




Not recruited rather a sort of an uninvited volunteer / masochist. I’m gonna stop here until such time as I have a Monkworkz PM alternator on my yet to be completed AC.



Bill at Monkworkz runs bench testing by spinning the alternator with a drill press. Ref YouTube channel.

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:43 pm Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

At 09:14 PM 6/10/2022, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>

 [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]

 > Bob:

 >    If you're being recruited as part of the Monkworkz

 >    product development team, then one would want to

 >    do some bench testing to confirm/deny the hypothesis.

 >    I've got a AN20000 drive pad test stand whereupon

 >    such questions could be explored.

 Not recruited rather a sort of an uninvited volunteer / masochist. I’m gonna stop here until such time as I have a Monkworkz PM alternator on my yet to be completed AC.

 Bill at Monkworkz runs bench testing by spinning the alternator with a drill press. 	

   Not exactly a precision test instrument. Next time

   you talk to him, suggest that I can plot efficiency

   and performance curves with some degree of confidence

   along with quantification of the 'spike' theory.

   . . . suitable NDA provided . . . of course.

   Bob . . .

   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101?

 	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 09:14 PM 6/10/2022, you wrote:



   Not exactly a precision test instrument. Next time

   you talk to him, suggest that I can plot efficiency

   and performance curves with some degree of confidence

   along with quantification of the 'spike' theory.



   . . . suitable NDA provided . . . of course.

 

   Bob . . . 	




Hi Bob,



I have communicated by email and telephone with Bill Judge of Monkworkz.



I passed along your offer of doing performance testing and evaluation of the spike that trips OV protection if the B lead is disconnected under load. At present Bill plans to keep testing in house.



Present Monkworkz documentation shows the B lead connected downstream of the master contactor. Perhaps Bill will come up with a recommended Z101 implementation. I shared my brainstorm configurations from post 9 with him.



Bill has a customer who connected the B lead to the battery using a relay independent of the master contactor and has hit the OV protection by opening the relay under load. This does not happen with the B lead connected downstream of the master contractor.



Per Bill:



“Why does this happen? Well, there are inductors inside the regulator, you can't instantaneously change the current in an inductor, the current has nowhere to go and causes a spike. That spike gets mopped up by a massive (1.5kW) TVS diode on the output but that doesn't kick in until the voltage goes over ~16 V, and the OVP kicks in at 15.3 V.



The generator has nothing to do with the spike. The output of the generator is rectified and sent through a voltage converter, the voltage converter is causing the spike.”

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

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