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General coment re instumentation

 
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Charles Heathco



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:19 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

I have been on this list since I got Tweetybird, and CPA while I had the cherokee. Have seen many posts re engine monitors etc. Makes me wonder how we kept em in the air when all we had was good judgment. Just for the heck of it about 2 yrs ago, I went thru the list of the 14 cherokees I flew in the 60's while getting my ratings and found that out of 14, 13 were still flying and turns out the 140 I got my Pvt checkride in at Okc was setting across the ramp from me at Gwinette co .Also the 1954 Apache I got my multi in (tricky plane) was still flying. What do they have in common with the RV's? Lycoming engines. Am I the only lucky Rv driver who can keep her in the air (high time engine) whith nothing but good judgment? Charlie Heathco

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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Great point. I started out flying C-150s and Cherokees, got my multi
rating in a Seneca, flew Convairs, DC3s, DC8s, Boeing 727s, and so forth. A
few years ago I started flying Airbus A300s. All the airplanes mentioned
were equipped pretty much like a light twin of the 70's: two coms, two
navs, an ADF, a couple of DMEs and sometimes an Omega or lately a GPS. The
Airbus had a fairly capable autopilot and more automation. My point is that
we flew and still fly these 450 knot jets just like we did the piston twins,
as far as the equipment is concerned. Most of them are hand flown for the
approach and landing (with the exception of the A 300).

My company operates both B 727s and A300s. The thing I (and others) have
noticed is that those that use the automation of the A300 tend to lose their
basic skills...this becomes obvious when the automation (particularly in the
approach phase, but also whenever the autopilots take the day off) quits.
The guys moving from the old to the newer have MUCH less trouble than going
the other way. I'm not sure the automation in too large a dose isn't a bad
thing unless it can be made 100% reliable. Engine monitors and glass
cockpits are great, but only if you don't get lazy and get too reliant on
them for situational awareness.

Makes me break out in a cold sweat to think about doing without glass
cockpits and automation. Oh well, guess I'll go pack for my next trip in
the old creaky B727.

The above, firmly tongue in cheek, but still true. Do not archive.

Olen Goodwin
---


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Doug Gray



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Piper, Mooney, Beech..... all just life support for a future RV engine.

charles heathco wrote:
Quote:


I have been on this list since I got Tweetybird, and CPA while I had the cherokee. Have seen many posts re engine monitors etc. Makes me wonder how we kept em in the air when all we had was good judgment. Just for the heck of it about 2 yrs ago, I went thru the list of the 14 cherokees I flew in the 60's while getting my ratings and found that out of 14, 13 were still flying and turns out the 140 I got my Pvt checkride in at Okc was setting across the ramp from me at Gwinette co .Also the 1954 Apache I got my multi in (tricky plane) was still flying. What do they have in common with the RV's? Lycoming engines. Am I the only lucky Rv driver who can keep her in the air (high time engine) whith nothing but good judgment? Charlie Heathco



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Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:46 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say OPEC),
which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines for so
long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
Nic


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khorton01(at)rogers.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

On 21 Jan 2006, at 04:43, Nic wrote:

Quote:


Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say
OPEC),
which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines
for so
long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
Nic

I don't think the engines are the problem. Lycomings and
Continentals have a fairly good specific fuel consumption for
gasoline engines (i.e. how much fuel they burn to make a certain
amount of power). The problem is the airframe. If you want to burn
less fuel to go from point A to point B, you need an airframe that
has less drag. Less drag means the engine needs to produce less
power, which means less fuel burned. The amateur built community has
made a lot of progress in this area, and some of if has trickled
across to the type certificated world.

If we want engines with better specific fuel consumption, we need to
move to diesel engines. But they are heavier for a given power
output, which makes them not so attractive.

Here's an interesting read on fuel burn and power claims from
alternative engine manufacturers:

http://www.sdsefi.com/air8.html

Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


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Jim Anglin



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 47
Location: Independence, OR (7S5 Airpark)

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:40 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Oh my God Charlie! How can you possibly fly without a digital engine monitor, altitude hold, and AOA indicator? And for VFR flight you are taking your life in your hands flying without a Dynon or some kind of EFIS. I am on my knees every day giving thanks for surviving all the hours I have flown not knowing the difference in EGTs for each cylinder.

F, D, and H

jim

DO NOT ARCHIVE


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dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Fuel is NOT cheap in the US. It costs more in other countries simply
because of government gouging, our government just doesn't gouge as much
- yet. So, if we triple the cost of gas then we'll get better engines? I
don't think so because to develop a new engine a company has to have a
market to sell them to and that market will have long since dried up
because of fuel prices.

I have nothing against new engine technology, if fact I'm all for it,
but I wish people would quit knocking Lycoming, my O-360 is one of the
most reliable engines around and gives me almost 20 mpg in my -6 -
that's better than many automobiles.

Sorry for the rant, but both these items touched a nerve.

Dave
do not archive

Quote:

Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say OPEC),
which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines for so
long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
Nic




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skylor4(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

There have been some interesting comments in this
thread. I feel the urge to respond to several of
them.
1. "Fuel is NOT cheaper in this country..."

If you think fuel is expensive in the US, you have
obviously not bought gasoline in Germany & other
European countries...
2. "Have seen many posts re engine monitors etc.
Makes me
wonder how we kept em in the air when all we had was
good judgment."

To me, this is an incredibly asinine statement. This
is like saying "how did we ever keep em in the air
when all we had was wood and fabric."

The modern engine monitor is probably the single most
useful piece of equipment to come to general aviation
in many years. Sure, planes fly just fine without
them. However, there are many, many examples on this
list of people experiencing engine problems that would
simply be much easier to trouble shoot with engine
monitor data. If you've ever had to pay a mechanic to
repeatedly trouble shoot a pesky ignition problem on a
certified aircraft, and you understand the
capabilities of multi-cylinder engine monitors, then
you would realize their true value.

An engine monitor, properly used, can also give
advance warning to serious internal problems such as
valve failure. To me, this is is worth every penny...

3. Engine efficiency...

Kevin Horton already pointed out a good link regarding
engine efficiency. Those that believe a modern, small
displacement EFI/EI automobile engine is going to be
more efficient in an aircraft than a Lycoming or
Continental simply aren't looking at the real numbers.

As stated, efficient automobile gasoline engines
typically have BSFC in the range of .42-.46. That is
WITHOUT the gear reduction units required to turn an
aircraft propeller at efficient and safe speeds. A
gear (or belt) reduction unit WILL reduce the
efficiency. Large bore FI Lycomings & Continentals
already have BSFC numbers in the .37-.41 range. This
is about as good as it gets for gasoline engines!

Furthermore, there seems to be some misunderstanding
that somehow "modern EFI" will improve efficiency in
an aircraft environment. Most people arguing the
virtues of automobile engines over aircraft engines
seem to forget a very important point: Automobile
engines are designed to operate in a very dynamic,
variable speed & power environment. This is where EFI
shines, by maintaining correct mixtures though out
this dynamic environment. Aircraft engines generally
operate at constant speed and power settings for long
periods of time. EFI offers little benefit in this
case. Mechanical fuel injection (and even
carburetors) do a very good job of atomizing fuel
efficiently, and providing the correct mixture at
constant speeds and manifold pressures. A mixture
knob is NOT that hard to use to optimize cruise
mixtures, especially if you have a good ENGINE
MONITOR!

By the way...what happened Bombardier's great "modern"
liquid cooled, V6 aircraft engine that they are
working on? I have heard that Bombardier has stated
fuel efficiency numbers at Osh that simply don't "add
up" for this type of engine...my bet is that they're
having trouble meeting their marketing claims with
this design.

DO NOT ARCHIVE.

Skylor
RV-8 QB
Under Const.


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Terry Watson



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Every time we get a good conspiracy theory going, someone like Kevin comes
along with some facts and spoils the fun. Spoilsport!

Terry
Do not archive


On 21 Jan 2006, at 04:43, Nic wrote:

Quote:


Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say
OPEC),
which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines
for so
long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
Nic

I don't think the engines are the problem. Lycomings and
Continentals have a fairly good specific fuel consumption for
gasoline engines (i.e. how much fuel they burn to make a certain
amount of power). The problem is the airframe. If you want to burn
less fuel to go from point A to point B, you need an airframe that
has less drag. Less drag means the engine needs to produce less
power, which means less fuel burned. The amateur built community has
made a lot of progress in this area, and some of if has trickled
across to the type certificated world.

If we want engines with better specific fuel consumption, we need to
move to diesel engines. But they are heavier for a given power
output, which makes them not so attractive.

Here's an interesting read on fuel burn and power claims from
alternative engine manufacturers:

http://www.sdsefi.com/air8.html

Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


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dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:17 pm    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

You missed the point of my comment Skylor. I did not say that fuel was
not "cheaper" in the US, I said that it was not "cheap".
3.50-4.50 per gallon in NOT cheap. I've been there and I know that it's
more expensive in Europe, but that's because people there have even LESS
control of government tax gouging than we do. I'm sure that they pay
about the same wholesale price for oil that the US does but their
governments add a LOT more taxes than ours does. That does NOT make our
gas "cheap".

Dave
do not archive

Skylor Piper wrote:

Quote:


There have been some interesting comments in this
thread. I feel the urge to respond to several of
them.
1. "Fuel is NOT cheaper in this country..."

If you think fuel is expensive in the US, you have
obviously not bought gasoline in Germany & other
European countries...





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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Quote:
You missed the point of my comment Skylor. I did not say that fuel was
not "cheaper" in the US, I said that it was not "cheap".
3.50-4.50 per gallon in NOT cheap. I've been there and I know that it's
more expensive in Europe, but that's because people there have even LESS
control of government tax gouging than we do. I'm sure that they pay
about the same wholesale price for oil that the US does but their
governments add a LOT more taxes than ours does. That does NOT make our
gas "cheap".

When I first moved here over 15 years ago I thought the same
thing. Then, after speaking to lots of people about things
like fuel prices and taxes and government, I've learned that
while fact many (majority?) Europeans do complain about the
high taxes on fuel, they see them as a necessary evil to
reduce their consumption, encourage alternative energy
development, and finance public transportation. Of course,
the major exception is in the UK, where many seem to distrust
their government, like in the USA. Perhaps that's where
we learned it.

Direct comparisons like this are very difficult, since
there are dozens of factors that are not always apparent.
Generally, Europeans don't rely on their cars as much as
Americans. Also, they are much more sensitive to
environmental issues.

Just as an aside, in Switzerland, the people have far more
control over their government than Americans have ever
dreamed of. Perhaps that's why they don't see their government
as the enemy, like we do.

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:17 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Kevin, You may be right and the Lycoming developed many years ago is the
Zenith of light aviation engines, but I doubt it, and quoting figures in
this present context is missing the point.

Fuel prices in the short to medium term will continue to rise in the 21st
century as China's expansion accelerates and it becomes the dominant nation
in the world, and the US struggles with its highest budget deficit since
WWII.

Low fuel prices have been sustained in the western world by economic and
military means for decades, but this era is coming to an end. My argument is
that our trusty old Lycomings have been more than adequate in this context,
but we all know that development has been slow as a result.

Against a background of higher fuel prices in Europe most consumers look for
fuel efficiency as a priority when selecting a vehicle, and cars with modern
Turbo Diesels have great economy of 50mpg+ and great torque, these were
developed specifically to provide the consumer with improved economy. Very
few people in Europe would consider a vehicle that only gives 20mpg !

Of course we don't need modern instrumentation to fly from A to B, but given
that we are reliant on our trusty old Lycosaurs, I think that having good
modern instrumentation adds reliability and maximises the use of our dated
power plants whilst also saving valuable resources.
Nic


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skylor4(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: General coment re instumentation Reply with quote

Dave,

You're right, I missed your point. Gas is not cheap.

I do believe that if gas prices in the US have been as
expensive as Europe for the last 30 years, Americans
my not be so complacent about excess energy
consumption.

Skylor

--- "D.Bristol" <dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Quote:

<dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net>

You missed the point of my comment Skylor. I did not
say that fuel was
not "cheaper" in the US, I said that it was not
"cheap".
3.50-4.50 per gallon in NOT cheap. I've been there
and I know that it's
more expensive in Europe, but that's because people
there have even LESS
control of government tax gouging than we do. I'm
sure that they pay
about the same wholesale price for oil that the US
does but their
governments add a LOT more taxes than ours does.
That does NOT make our
gas "cheap".

Dave
do not archive

Skylor Piper wrote:

>
<skylor4(at)yahoo.com>
>
>There have been some interesting comments in this
>thread. I feel the urge to respond to several of
>them.
>
>
>1. "Fuel is NOT cheaper in this country..."
>
>If you think fuel is expensive in the US, you have
>obviously not bought gasoline in Germany & other
>European countries...
>
>
>





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