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take off with flaps

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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: take off with flaps

Question:   Is there an advantage to taking off with 

flapperons down  or would it be better to ignore the flapperons altogether

on a

2800' 

grass  strip.

 



I did some test with my mark III..  With no flaps.. 20 deg and full 40 deg

flaps..   With no flaps or at 40 deg the take off roll was about the same.

But with 20 deg of flaps the take off was around 50 ft shorter.   Even

though there is more lift possible with 40 deg of flaps.  it also creates

more drag.. and the drag penalty is more than the lift of the extra

deflection.



Boyd    your change may vary.

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: take off with flaps

A flaperons down takeoff will shorten yoru takeoff roll as you found in your testing.  Flaps will add extra drag, and hurt your climb rate, but you will get off the ground faster.  If you are worried about mud, soft field, short field, use flaps... If you need to climb faster, no flaps would be better.  In no case should you ever use full flaps for takeoff,  at that setting the drag penalty is so high that you only hurt your performance to the point of being hazardous !

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: take off with flaps

In no case should you ever use full flaps for takeoff,  at that 

setting the drag penalty is so high that you only hurt your 

performance to the point of being hazardous !



Mike B:



There is one exception, or variation, that I use occassionally.  It is 

useful getting out of a soft, wet, or heavily vegetated strip.  Start 

the takeoff roll clean.  Just prior to reaching stall speed, snatch 

the flaps all the way down.  Soon as the MKIII pops off the ground, 

start easing the flaps out and continue to climb.



Normally, never use flaps for take off, but use them for most all 

landings.



john h

MKIII

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: take off with flaps

Hi John,



        Great technique.  One of my early instructors taught me the same 

thing, saved me once on a snowy, short runway (PA-28 with Hershey-bar wing).



Ed in JXN (MI)

MkII/503

Do not archive.





---

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: Re: take off with flaps

Very Correct John,



I did not consider that situation, but that would work great      I immagine you used that technique on the the soft beach in alaska, I remember seeing a picture of your tailwheel sunk way down in the sand.



JettPilot

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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: Re: take off with flaps

 	  Quote: 	
		  I immagine you used that technique on the the soft beach in alaska 	




Morning Mike B/Gang:



That is correct.  That was the old Maule 6" solid rubber tailwheel in that picture.  In sand, as dry and soft as it was on the beach, 12 miles south of Barrow Airport, the tailwheel acted like an anchor.  



Poor planning got me on the beach with full fuel and gear, aprx'ly 1,200 lbs takeoff weight.  I should have gone down the Will Rogers/Wiley Post Memorial before I refueled after my flight from Helmericks.  Would have been easier to get in and out of the beach.  However, the old fat MKIII did her job quite well, as usual.



I now have an 8" pnuematic Maule Tundra Tailwheel which would have done a much better job.



I have attached two photos of Miss P'fer (P fer plane) on the beach on the Arctic Ocean at the Will Rogers/Wiley Post crash site and memorial.  Very solem feeling standing alone on that beach where these two adventurers died in 1935.



Little MKIII never ceases to amaze me.

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: Re: take off with flaps





Hi Gang:



Here was another occassion to use the "flap pop up" technique of takeoff.  Was between LA, CA, and Laughlin, NV.  In dire need of a pit stop.  Nearest airport 30 miles off course.  Picked out a dry creek bed, drug it twice, then went for it.  Sand was dry and deeper than I had expected.  Thank goodness for the displaced main gear on my MKIII.  Standard MKIII gear location would have put me on my nose and I would have been looking for another way back to Alabama.  In a situation like this, there is no way to know exactly what you are getting into until you have committed to land.  I was a little bit, well..........a lot leary, of getting back out of there.  Walked my take off track to make sure there wasn't anything that was going to jump out and bite me.  Big problem is getting the aircraft to start rolling.  I also had dug out in front of the mains to help every little bit I could to get moving.  Once I got her rolling, she climbed right up on top of the sand, popped the flaps, and we were flying.  That is always a super good feeling when we get back in the air once again.

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Mark

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: take off with flaps

WOW!!! 



 Thats how I used to get my PA28-140 off the ground on shorter strips. Thought no one else did it...

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Mark Shimei
Twinstar, 503
Phantom, Kawasaki 440
Weight shift Quick, Chrysler

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