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Past Present Future

 
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CloudCraft(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

In a message dated 20-Jan-06 17:01:26 Pacific Standard Time,
BertBerry1(at)aol.com writes:
If this list was intended for JUST CURRENT Commander Owners, Drivers ...etc.
then maybe someone should say it and get it over with.
Bert, you and everyone esle is most welcome. We have past, present and
future Commander owners and aficionados here: That's what makes this knowledge base
so valuable to future and current operators.

Those of us who have been here for years value that and are worried about
this knowledge base getting diluted -- or polluted.

I say let anyone who wants to build a better mousetrap, do so. The hard core
information is right here (and on Nico's server) and I forecast this is where
it will stay.

Wing Commander Gordon
(too sane to own an airplane, not sane enough to stop participating in the
Commander world)

Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.


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dongirod(at)bellsouth.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:53 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Wing Commander;

Your remarks about being too sane to own an airplane, reminds me of a coffee
cup I own. Shows an old cowboy sitting at the bar saying, "Spent most of my
money on women and beer, the rest I just wasted!" Not exactly sure where my
560E comes into play!

Don
---


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CloudCraft(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

In a message dated 20-Jan-06 21:54:09 Pacific Standard Time,
dongirod(at)bellsouth.net writes:
"Spent most of my
money on women and beer, the rest I just wasted!" Not exactly sure where my
560E comes into play!
Quote:
>>
>>
Your 560-E ought to be right between beer and women.


Wing Commander Gordon

Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
do not archive


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john(at)vormbaum.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Excellent, Wing Commander Gordon is in the house! Perhaps you can enlighten
me:

I seem to have developed a bad habit, or omitted something important. Since
I've had my airplane painted, and had new cowl latches put on (tightening
the cowlings up quite a bit), had new antennas (antennae?) installed,
adjusted the gear doors, and a few other things, all of which have cleaned
up the airframe nicely (to the tune of about 6kts in cruise), I've had
difficulty on final. I can set the power, enter the pattern, get the gear
down, add flaps in 2 stages, and end up configured correctly at 85 kias on
final, then give the flaps the last 'notch' to "full flaps" on 1/2 mile
final or so, when the landing is assured, and BAM, suddenly I'm at 100kias,
trying to slow up before I get over the fence. It feels like simply an
attitude issue, like suddenly there's a greater pitch-down tendency than
there used to be when I go to full flaps.

It didn't used to be this way. I used to be able to come in at ~80kias over
the fence and make the first turnoff at 1000 feet...often having to *add*
power to pull off the runway. I've now got ~600 hours in the airplane, so
although I'm no pro, I'm not exactly new either.

So my questions are:

1) Have I started doing something boneheaded? Am I omitting something that
should be in my pre-landing checklist?
2) Is this a consequence of the cleaner airframe, and if so, how do I
compensate? Fly even slower on downind & base?
3) Am I being too conservative with the flaps? Should I throw full flaps
much earlier?

Thanks as always,

/John

PS: PAO is fairly noise-sensitive so I generally have the props pulled
pretty far back (2,100 - 2,200 rpm)....but I've flown every approach at home
that way since I got the airplane so I can't blame it on not using the props
as brakes.

---


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westwind(at)hdiss.net
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:17 am    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

I constantly monitor the list,but by the time I think of a comment other
members jump in and say it better than I could or in the case of a
"discusion" several people will hash it out and settle it so there is no
need for my input. But about every 9 months or so a pressure builds up in me
that can only be relieved by the birth of a posting, no matter how inane.
First to Chris re: your Ode to Spam(tm) OY VEY! Next to John Vormbaum as you
hit the full flap setting do you increase back pressure either with yoke or
elevator trim to maintain the speed you want? It may be that with your new
mods there is a slight difference in nose attitude that gives you a
different windscreen picture than the one you have become accustomed to. As
you know when you're close to the ground just a few degrees can make a big
difference in the windscreen picture. Some day when you've got GA$ to burn
fly over to a quiet strip and do some touch&gos with no flaps, partial flaps
and full flaps and make mental notes of the different sound, feel and
windscreen picture on each.....they might be close but they will be
different. The desert duck(at)westwind
----- ll" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Past Present Future
[quote]

Excellent, Wing Commander Gordon is in the house! Perhaps you can
enlighten
me:

I seem to have developed a bad habit, or omitted something important.
Since
I've had my airplane painted, and had new cowl latches put on (tightening
the cowlings up quite a bit), had new antennas (antennae?) installed,
adjusted the gear doors, and a few other things, all of which have cleaned
up the airframe nicely (to the tune of about 6kts in cruise), I've had
difficulty on final. I can set the power, enter the pattern, get the gear
down, add flaps in 2 stages, and end up configured correctly at 85 kias on
final, then give the flaps the last 'notch' to "full flaps" on 1/2 mile
final or so, when the landing is assured, and BAM, suddenly I'm at
100kias,
trying to slow up before I get over the fence. It feels like simply an
attitude issue, like suddenly there's a greater pitch-down tendency than
there used to be when I go to full flaps.

It didn't used to be this way. I used to be able to come in at ~80kias
over
the fence and make the first turnoff at 1000 feet...often having to *add*
power to pull off the runway. I've now got ~600 hours in the airplane, so
although I'm no pro, I'm not exactly new either.

So my questions are:

1) Have I started doing something boneheaded? Am I omitting something that
should be in my pre-landing checklist?
2) Is this a consequence of the cleaner airframe, and if so, how do I
compensate? Fly even slower on downind & base?
3) Am I being too conservative with the flaps? Should I throw full flaps
much earlier?

Thanks as always,

/John

PS: PAO is fairly noise-sensitive so I generally have the props pulled
pretty far back (2,100 - 2,200 rpm)....but I've flown every approach at
home
that way since I got the airplane so I can't blame it on not using the
props
as brakes.

---


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dongirod(at)bellsouth.net
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Quote:
1) Have I started doing something boneheaded? Am I omitting something that
should be in my pre-landing checklist?
2) Is this a consequence of the cleaner airframe, and if so, how do I
compensate? Fly even slower on downind & base?
3) Am I being too conservative with the flaps? Should I throw full flaps
much earlier?


John;

I guess its just the old habits coming through, but I put my flaps down much
sooner. When flying for a living, the flaps went to 15 (about half) on down
wind and over the outer marker or glide slope interception it was full
flaps. True we didn't drop the gear so soon like we do in the Commander,
but that is because of speed limits on the gear vs. flaps with this
airplane. In a typical Boeing that I used to fly it was flaps 15 on
downwind, 25 on base, glide slope movement gear down, glide slope intercept,
landing flaps. With both the heavies and the Commander, its very little
throttle movement once set up. Just my thoughts.

Don


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john(at)vormbaum.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Dan, that's a great suggestion. I probably have to re-learn the picture out
the front window with the airframe changes. Thanks!

/J
---


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john(at)vormbaum.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Quote:
When flying for a living, the flaps went to 15 (about half) on down
wind and over the outer marker or glide slope interception it was full
flaps.

Hi Don,

I guess it's a shortcoming of my training; I was trained not to go full
flaps until the runway was assured. How do all you other guys manage your
flaps in Commanders?

/John


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cschuerm(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

John Vormbaum wrote:
Quote:
I guess it's a shortcoming of my training; I was trained not to go full
flaps until the runway was assured.

John,
The replies have been rather interesting and they show quite a diverse
range of methodology.
I was taught to fly by military instructors and the 'stabilized
approach' was always their technique. By the time you were established
on final approach, everything was supposed to be set up for landing.
Fiddling with flaps, gear, etc was supposed to all complete by then. I
ran into a civilian instructor on a bi-annual who chastized me for that
technique and said the same thing yours did. Obviously it's not a
question of right/wrong, but just technique. The military guys were
constantly either pulling an engine or requiring a late go-around during
my training which made me comfortable with a quick, last-minute
re-configuration so I guess it all works out in the end. I do find I
make more regular nice landings on spot when I have plenty of time
during a well-established approach though....

chris


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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

As I was told (not as long ago as Old Bob) your landing begins at your TOD.
---


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john(at)vormbaum.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured" technique
was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer if you
lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he
mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a Commander will
go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind makes it
a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.

/J
---


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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Good Evening John,

Beware! -- Rant Mode Coming On!

That has always been one of the reasons given, but a good analysis of the
problem shows many other ways to make a safe go around. There is no 'one size
fits all' answer. Many of the methods taught fifty to sixty years ago were
the result of WWII training expediency.

They didn't have time to train the pilots the full range of airmanship, so
the training was simplified and conditions compromised. Good Old Joe saved the
world for the rest of us using what he had been taught. When he came home, he
taught the rest of us the way he had been taught. Some of those Joes went
with the FAA and put those training expediencies in the FAA regulatory
environment. We have been suffering from World War Two training expediencies for
almost sixty years.

It is time we went beyond what Good Old Joe was taught.

Have you ever been told to never turn into a failed engine! That was gospel
in many WWII squadrons. Had I turned into a dead engine when I got my
multi-engine rating I would have failed the check ride. Fortunately, that one has
been pretty well stamped out, but many others, such as: "Don't take full flap
until landing is assured" are still being foisted on the flying public.

Rant Off

Do Not Archive

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503

In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:21:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,
john(at)vormbaum.com writes:

I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured" technique

was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer if you
lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he
mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a Commander will
go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind makes it
a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.


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br549phil(at)mindspring.c
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

My two cents on flaps. I think when you have only one running, there is
great value in following whatever your normal approach routine might be.
You already are dealing with one problem, keep it simple and don't add more
variables to your routine, they will only increase your workload and invite
distraction from the problem at hand. Remember that most accidents are the
result of a series of events. An engine out on a Commander need not lead to
anything worse than a low speed steering problem once on the ground.
Phil
Quote:
[Original Message]
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: 1/21/2006 7:20:09 PM
Subject: Re: Past Present Future



I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured"
technique

Quote:
was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer if you
lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he
mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a Commander
will

Quote:
go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind makes
it

[quote] a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.

/J
---


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tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.n
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

I read an accident report on a 500B that crashed on landing during
engine out situation.
The pilots were not experienced in Twin Commanders and on down wind
they put the gear down.
The extra drag could not be overcome and they landed about 1/2 mile
short and in the trees.
Both pilots died.

If I was in a engine out situation, I would wait until I had the
landing made before dropping the gear. Once down, it is staying
there and it will cause a lot of drag.

just my $0.02

Tylor Hall

On Jan 21, 2006, at 8:49 PM, "" <br549phil(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

[quote]

My two cents on flaps. I think when you have only one running,
there is
great value in following whatever your normal approach routine
might be.
You already are dealing with one problem, keep it simple and don't
add more
variables to your routine, they will only increase your workload
and invite
distraction from the problem at hand. Remember that most accidents
are the
result of a series of events. An engine out on a Commander need not
lead to
anything worse than a low speed steering problem once on the ground.
Phil
> [Original Message]
> From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
> To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
> Date: 1/21/2006 7:20:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Past Present Future
>
>
> <john(at)vormbaum.com>
>
> I am beginning to think that the "full flaps when landing assured"
technique
> was for a broad range of airplanes, and to make things a tad safer
> if you
> lost an engine during the approach. Keith made me think "aha" when he
> mentioned that unlike electric flap airplanes, the flaps on a
> Commander
will
> go UP regardless, as long as you put the lever up. That in my mind
> makes
it
> a bit safer to use the full range of flaps anywhere on approach.
>
> /J
> ---


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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Past Present Future Reply with quote

I agree with Phil. Single engine landings should be a non event if normal
landing procedures are followed, including use of flaps except do not extend
gear until you are on the glide slope or started down from a VFR traffic
pattern. Go to final flaps when the run way is made. DO NOT add extra airspeed
because the plane will float when you cut the power because of the lack of drag
from the feathered prop.

It is amazing how may single engine landings end up in runway overruns!

I offer training on single engine operations during recurrent training.

Bill Leff


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n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Past Present Future Reply with quote

Quote:
Single engine landings should be a non event if normal
landing procedures are followed,

I have only lost an engine once and that was in the 685. Trimmed the plane and used my normal landing procedurs except hoding the gear up until the landing was assured. It was a non event except as John mentioned above it became a ground steering problem once I slowed to a taxi.


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