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Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Hello all,



Just thinking out loud here, wondering about possible aircraft configurations.  I've found a 2-seat tube and fabric airplane kit I really like.  It's got a gross weight of 1550 lbs and a useful load of 900 lbs (about 790 w/full fuel) and a really large cargo area.



Presuming weight and balance limits are observed, what are the implications of someone adding a second row of seats in the cargo area for occasional passengers?  Would one need to insure this aircraft as a four-seater?  Are we just asking for trouble?  Would one be better off building a true 4-seat aircraft instead?



Thanks and best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Way too vague Chris.....     Stop screwing around and let the people know

what airplane you are really considering. Then you can get the appropriate

response.

Weav

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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Alrighty... Just Aircraft Highlander...



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

So.....  a bigger Kitfox and you are considering making it a four place?

Does the airplane use a Rotax 912S or something else for power? The airframe

is probably strong enough but have you penciled out a CG result?

Are you considering these mods so you can carry small kids?

Finally, what are you planning on doing with the airplane? Just small local

flights with your wife and kids sightseeing or do you intend on loading it

up and going somewhere?

Weav

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dfultz7(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Unless you are an engineer if it were meant to be marketed as a four place I 

am sure they would have tried to grab that part of the market also. Seats, 

seat belts, and any other additions takes away from useful load. Just my 

opinion. Dale

J2j3h4(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

As Dale said, the amenities take away from the useful load.  You will  also need seat belts and brackets and may have to reinforce the belt attach  points (don't forget to consider G-loads).  If the cargo area does not have  a sturdy floor, you will also need to provide that.  Also access to the  area does look to be difficult, as far as a passenger getting into  it.   These alone are probably the reasons they don't market  it as a 4 place.   

  

 If you have considered all of these, can stay within W&B limits,  and still want to do it, I see no reason why you can't.   That's  what experimental aircraft are all about.  I read the specs on the plane  and they are very impressive.

  

 I assume you are either talking about hauling children or you and your  copilot are very small people.

  

 Jim (an engineer)

  

  

 In a message dated 9/17/2006 10:51:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  dfultz7(at)earthlink.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Dale Fultz"    <dfultz7(at)earthlink.net>



Unless you are an engineer if it were    meant to be marketed as a four place I 

am sure they would have tried to    grab that part of the market also. Seats, 

seat belts, and any other    additions takes away from useful load. Just my 

opinion. Dale  e the  es  Day       -->                - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

bsp;    -->  nbsp;                - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

_-=  ;  p;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Thanks to all for your thoughts.



Any seats that would reside in the rear would, indeed, be for kids, and for short, local flying.  There aren't any windows back there, so sightseeing would probably be out (although one could probably put some in if one were creative).  If I were to load it up for camping or what-not, it would likely only be for two people since I suspect cargo and people in that area would get really crowded.  Short of the specifications, there's not a lot of information online about the aircraft, so speculation is all I have to go on, hence the questions.  The specs do call out the 100HP Rotax 912.



Good answer regarding the cargo area floor and seat belt requirements.  These are types of things I'm looking to learn about being a newcomer to the field.



I'm sure you're right, in that if there was a market for a 4-place aircraft in this style it would have already been done.  There are 4-place aircraft purpose built for the type of flying that the Highlander does, but they are much heavier, use larger engines, and are subsequently more expensive to operate.



Just looking to see if there's a way to maximize ROI on this type of aircraft.



Thanks and best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

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Mytyweav(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Chris....  There are plenty of people at Waunakee that know about this

stuff. Are you located on the airpark?  If not, you might want to go hang

out there and talk to some people.

The Highlander is probably a good airplane and the Rotax is wonderful....

If you don't have much experience in these types of airplanes, you should

spend some time bs'ing with some people that do.

BTW, your kids won't get any fun out of sitting in a dungeon...   If you

elect to do your thing, put in some windows so they can look out and

enjoy...

That's what flying is all about...........

Weav



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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

I live really close to the Waunakee airport, but don't know anyone that lives on it except for one I met that's a member of the airport association when they were selling hangars.  He's a nice guy.  There aren't a lot of people that "hang out", per se, at the Waunakee airport.



I have recently joined the EAA chapter out at the Middleton airport (Morey Field), and there are some enthusiastic members out there.  I'm sure I'll learn lots from those guys and gals.



Thanks again for your insight.  It's greatly appreciated 



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

luther b green

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 47

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Chris have you looked at the Bearhawk or Bearhawk patrol?

Bryan Green (Elgin SC)

Sonex #929

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_________________
Bryan Green Elgin SC
Firestar 447 Powerfin

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Hi Bryan,



I have looked at the Bearhawk, actually.  It's a very nice plane.  The one thing that concerns me about the Bearhawk (and it's the only thing) is float capability.  My ultimate goal is to fly floats one day, and according to their information, although it's  likely a good candidate for floats, it wasn't specifically designed for it.  The designer said it would need to be strengthened up in a few areas.  Perhaps that's a customization one could have them make before building the airframe.  But I suppose one could ask.  All they can do is say no, right? 



Thanks for the note   



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

Bob H

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 43

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

With only 100hp and 1550lb gross, the plane will have climb performance like a C-150 at gross. You could do it but not to fly into high altitude airports as getting out would be risky. So if you are always flying in flatlands, might get by.

I live at 7000' and our airport usually gets at least a plane a year going down on takeoff because of insufficient power vs weight. A C-150 will climb out at around 100fpm here; not much margin for gusts or downdrafts.

Bob H

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Semantics question: 3 or 4 seats in a 2-seat aircraft?

Thanks for your insight Bob.



Following the replies here and the advice of some other builders, I've decided to build a 4-place airplane so I can haul people and "stuff" appropriately.  I've selected the Barrows Bearhawk, have the plans in hand, and am excited about getting started.



I've got a lot of learning to do prior to the start of all this good stuff and have signed up for the sheet metal course in Oshkosh at the end of January.  Seems like the best option since I'll be working on the wings first.



Thanks again for all of your thoughts!



Best regards,

Chris



 	  Bob H wrote: 	
		  With only 100hp and 1550lb gross, the plane will have climb performance like a C-150 at gross. You could do it but not to fly into high altitude airports as getting out would be risky. So if you are always flying in flatlands, might get by.

I live at 7000' and our airport usually gets at least a plane a year going down on takeoff because of insufficient power vs weight. A C-150 will climb out at around 100fpm here; not much margin for gusts or downdrafts.

Bob H

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

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