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M3X pictures,numbers
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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:32 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Hi Lucien

All that is of course true but in the case of our machines what are we 

tallking about...5 mph?  How much wear and tear can that produce? What have 

you saved .. just a few seconds of rolling time. 	




Lot more than that. even in my FSII. If I kept the tail glued to the runway on the roll, I'd lift off around the time the ASI started moving. The difference in terms of wobbling when my wheels weren't balanced too well was significant, not to mention if I wasn't dead on with the rudder.

In the titan, it's literally more than 20mph slower than Vx, with enough back elevator I can get off the ground at somewhere between 40 and 45, even slower if I use about 10 degs of flaps.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

As your article states `if you are not up to speed when you try to fly out 

of GE you will be back on th ground`  I would rather be on the ground for 

those extra few seconds and then rotate positively.



Good thread though

Pat 	




Er, that's what flying lessons are for . It takes training and practice to learn how to manage a soft-field technique so that you don't do this. 



Nowadays, I use soft-field technique on practically every takeoff and the difference in terms of liftoff speed is large.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Egad, Pat!

I never had a girl friend cute enough to make me do that!



On May 14, 2009, at 11:00 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Otherwise you wouldn't ever get fast enough for a takeoff.(in Snow)



 Russ,

 A very experienced micro flier once told me that one year when  

 there was heavy snowfall and he couldn`t leave his farm to visit  

 his girl friend he tied the bumpers from an old car on to his  

 microlights undercarriage. He said it worked. He was a pretty hairy  

 flyer anyway



 Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

At 10:50 AM 5/14/2009, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I would rather be on the ground for those extra few seconds and then 

rotate positively.


	


The whole point of the takeoff run is to get the aircraft up to a safe and 

appropriate airspeed for climbout.  You do this by reducing drag as much as 

possible.  For a taildragger, this means raising the tail to reduce wing 

drag; wheels have less drag than a wing that's producing lift... unless the 

field is soft enough or has grass long enough that it would cause more drag 

than the lift induced drag, in which case it would make more sense to 

accelerate in ground effect.



In a strong steady crosswind, it may also make more sense to lift off 

sooner so the wind isn't trying to weathervane the plane while still on the 

ground.



-Dana

--

  OK, I'm weird! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:43 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

In the titan, it's literally more than 20mph slower than Vx, with enough 

back elevator I can get off the ground at somewhere between 40 and 45, even 

slower if I use about 10 degs of flaps.>>



Hi,

I am not familiar with a Titan but I had the idea that it was tricycle u/c. 

like the Challenger. If that is true then comparison with the Kolb is 

invidious. Up elevator on a Kolb on the ground as you know is a waste of 

time.



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Hi,

I am not familiar with a Titan but I had the idea that it was tricycle u/c. 

like the Challenger. If that is true then comparison with the Kolb is 

invidious. Up elevator on a Kolb on the ground as you know is a waste of 

time.



Pat 	




Wasn't a waste of time in my FSII. Soft-field techique worked just fine for me in it, I could get off the ground at very low speeds, just a little after the ASI started indicating if I'm recalling correctly. I just kept the tailwheel glued to the ground and lifted off in a 3-point atitude. 



I recall no struggling just above stall doing it this way, it flew fine in GE at very low speeds. Slowly relaxing back pressure on the stick to stay in GE until fast enough to go ahead and climb out..... Worked fine.....



Again I'd suggest some of those flying lesson thingys to see how this works.....

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

If I try to force my MkIII off with full back stick it doesn't like  

it.  There is nothing gained,

it feels lousy and puts unnecessary stress on the tailwheel assembly.

I ease it off with neutral stick, getting into ground effect to pick  

up a decent climb speed.

Be gentle with your bird on the ground.

BB

do not archive



On 15, May 2009, at 9:35 AM, lucien wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:

>

> Hi,

> I am not familiar with a Titan but I had the idea that it was  

> tricycle u/c.

> like the Challenger. If that is true then comparison with the Kolb is

> invidious. Up elevator on a Kolb on the ground as you know is a  

> waste of

> time.

>

> Pat

 Wasn't a waste of time in my FSII. Soft-field techique worked just  

 fine for me in it, I could get off the ground at very low speeds,  

 just a little after the ASI started indicating if I'm recalling  

 correctly. I just kept the tailwheel glued to the ground and lifted  

 off in a 3-point atitude.



 I recall no struggling just above stall doing it this way, it flew  

 fine in GE at very low speeds. Slowly relaxing back pressure on the  

 stick to stay in GE until fast enough to go ahead and climb  

 out..... Worked fine.....



 LS



 --------

 LS

 Titan II SS





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 44121#244121

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

( UP elevator when on the ground)Wasn't a waste of time in my FSII.>>



Of course it was.



A plane changes course by pushing the tail in the opposite direction in 

exactly the same way that a boats rudder works. To move up in a plane you 

force the tail down. To go port in a boat you push the stern to starboard.

That is why putting the helm over when you are against the harbour wall 

doesnt work, and holding the tail on the ground doesn`t work erither.



Of course there comes a point when the AoA eventually produces enough lift 

to get airborne but holding the tail down hasn`t contributed anything. It 

does ensure of course that you get into the air the moment you have enough 

speed, and in CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES that may be desirable.  I don`t usually 

want to do that, I like speed in hand by the time I leave the ground



Cheers



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Of course it was.



A plane changes course by pushing the tail in the opposite direction in 

exactly the same way that a boats rudder works. To move up in a plane you 

force the tail down. To go port in a boat you push the stern to starboard.

That is why putting the helm over when you are against the harbour wall 

doesnt work, and holding the tail on the ground doesn`t work erither.



Of course there comes a point when the AoA eventually produces enough lift 

to get airborne but holding the tail down hasn`t contributed anything. It 

does ensure of course that you get into the air the moment you have enough 

speed, and in CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES that may be desirable.  I don`t usually 

want to do that, I like speed in hand by the time I leave the ground



Cheers



Pat 	




Well at this point, and I don't mean to be condescending, but I'd suggest that you get some dual from an instructor focussing on soft-field takeoff techniques. 

You're describing as hazardous and useless a mode of flight that is neither and has been employed successfully in fixed-wing aircraft for ages for soft-field ops. 

It also works as intended in the Kolb just as it does in any other fixed wing airplane (including trikes) - Kolbs do fine soft-field t/o's without any of the drawbacks you're mentioning here.



PS: you do know that the point of a soft-field t/o is NOT to get in the air as _quickly_ as possible right?



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:38 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

You're describing as hazardous and useless a mode of flight that is neither 

and has been employed successfully in fixed-wing aircraft for ages for 

soft-field ops. >>



Sorry Lucien,

I don`t think I have ever said that.



What I DID say was that the take off technique you described was useful `"in 

certain circumstances" and " less safe" than the usual method of take off.



If that were not so we would all use that technique all the time.



I think we have flogged this to within an inch of its life and probably 

bored the rest of the list silly so I think we should agree to differ.

 Whatever our views they have kept us both alive so each must have some 

validity.



Cheers



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Sorry Lucien,

I don`t think I have ever said that.



What I DID say was that the take off technique you described was useful `"in 

certain circumstances" and " less safe" than the usual method of take off.



	




"in certain circumstances" (soft-field ops) is right but "less safe than the usual method" is _not_ right. That's been my point all along.

 

Again, some dual with an instructor on soft field t/o techniques, including ground school on the effects of ground effect, etc., is really in order if you think this is the case. Some rough field ops in your plane after that using the correct technique would be a good demonstration of that as well.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 2:04 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

"less safe than the usual method" is _not_ right. >>



O Golly Lucien, I thought we had put this to bed.  You have cherry picked my 

answer. I said `if it was not less safe why don`t we use it all the time."



We dont.



Positively the end.

We have a new and exciting thread to pursue now about the legal 

classification of Kolbs.



Cheers



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  "less safe than the usual method" is _not_ right. >>



O Golly Lucien, I thought we had put this to bed. 

	




Well because, with all due respect, you're continuing to say something that's wrong 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 You have cherry picked my 

answer. I said `if it was not less safe why don`t we use it all the time."



	




One last time: we don't use it all the time, NOT because it's _less safe_, but because it's not _necessary_ under all t/o circumstances (i.e. for short fields). 



Again, there's _nothing unsafe_ about using GE in soft-field t/o operations in the way we've been discussing. You keep asserting that it is so I keep countering that it is NOT (and offering a way for you to learn that it is not).



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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