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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

There's a really informative article about LSAs seaplanes in this month's EAA Sport Pilot magazine (August 2006).  I was surprised that they were more well suited to the task (in many cases) than the aircraft I've normally seen on floats.  It's a very good read.  If you haven't seen it yet, I can highly recommend it.



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Thanks Chris.  I wrote that article for EAA.



I felt it might be good for people to know there are less expensive (but 

still practical) alternatives for recreational seaplanes if frustrated with 

the more conventional choices.  I've been flying both types for years 

(general aviation seaplanes as well as Light Sport seaplanes) and enjoy them 

both immensely.  But I have noticed a slow down in activity with some of the 

more traditional seaplanes, and have concerns it might be caused by 

operational costs.  Hopefully I'm wrong about that, and it is just a fluke. 

But if not, we do have options that will allow us die hard seaplane types to 

keep flying...



Paul Seehafer

---

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Hi Paul,



Thanks for the great article.  I had never given floatplanes any thought until recently.  I don't remember what made me think more seriously about them, but it may have been the video for the Murphy Moose that I received with a product information kit earlier this year.  I went to Oshkosh for the first time this year and saw a Beaver on amphibious floats, then took a trip over to the seaplane base.  After that, I was completely hooked.  I now realize that I want to be on floats when I grow up.  Now I just need to see if I'll ever be able to afford to fly in that capacity!



I've never really taken a serious look at a fabric-covered aircraft.  I always assumed that an all-metal plane was a better option.  Perhaps I need to take another look at them, especially for all the reasons you described in your article.



Thanks again for the great read 



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

john(at)nielsenford.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Chris,

You should make a trip ip to Bloomer WI (20mi N of EAU).  At our field, 

we have the nations largest volume Challenger dealer...Don Zank.  I have 

a Challenger II on Puddle Jumper amphibs.  It is sooo much fun.  I have 

put nearly 80 hours on it since the ice broke up.  Come up and we will 

treat you to an intro to real fun and in-expensive float flying....ie 

plane (used) for around $18K.  Floats (new) for $5500.  Fly around at 65 

to 70 mph on 5 gph!!

John Nielsen

Bloomer WI  (WI18)

Chris In Madison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Paul,

 

 Thanks for the great article.  I had never given floatplanes any thought until recently.  I don't remember what made me think more seriously about them, but it may have been the video for the Murphy Moose that I received with a product information kit earlier this year.  I went to Oshkosh for the first time this year and saw a Beaver on amphibious floats, then took a trip over to the seaplane base.  After that, I was completely hooked.  I now realize that I want to be on floats when I grow up.  Now I just need to see if I'll ever be able to afford to fly in that capacity!

 

 I've never really taken a serious look at a fabric-covered aircraft.  I always assumed that an all-metal plane was a better option.  Perhaps I need to take another look at them, especially for all the reasons you described in your article.

 

 Thanks again for the great read 

 

 Best regards,

 Chris

 

 --------

 Chris Owens

 Waunakee, WI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59591#59591

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Hi John,



You're the second person who's mentioned the Challenger aircraft to me.  Our kids' sitter's husband's father (yeah, I know...) is a Challenger dealer out here in Waunakee (or is it Madison).  He tells me it's loads of fun to fly them as well.  If two people say so, it must be true 



I briefly looked at a couple of web sites that sell the Challenger, but they were so horrible that I couldn't get a decent look at one.  Perhaps I'll try to get a closer look at one from the father-in-law, who's apparently been selling them for a long time out here.



I might have to drop by the next time I'm up in your neck of the woods, so to speak.  Thanks for the info 



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

shortnaked(at)golden.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Good site here  on Challengers.     http://challenger.ca/



I am not a Challenger owner , but I will say that they have a great group of 

owners that help each other out.



That Site has a few videos that compare the 503 and 582 Challenger on 

Floats. really shows you why a 582 is so popular although the 503 isa great 

engine.

Kitfox  or Avid on floats is hard to Beat.  Cruise in a side by side cabin 

on Amphibs from 80 to 110 mph  with ease depending on the engine a 582 or 

912 is my comparison.

Shorty





---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Try:

http://www.challenger.ca/airplane.html



I was looking at a Challenger a while ago.  The folding wings on the Kitfox

won out!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Shorty:  



I did some time in a PA 18 Super Cub last week.......finally got most of the

time for the endorsement.  Wow what a ride... 160 Hp gets the lead off the

water real fast.  Having the instructor in the rear seat was perfect.  Most

of the time I was hardly aware he was there.  There wasn't the same pressure

as having an instructor sitting beside you.  The plane itself behaved like a

'fox on a mega dose of steroids.  Landing speed was a bit higher but it

seemed to drop off step very fast..... As for getting up on step 160 Hp says

it all!  One notch of flaps was like throwing the hook (anchor) overboard.  



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Noel,



I'm surprised you'd find the Supercub that much better performer off water 

compared to a Kitfox.  Not that a Supercub with 160 hp is any slouch, as it 

is a marvelous seaplane.  But my little 80 hp amphib kitfox will break water 

in 8 seconds with 2 hours of fuel on board and me, whereas a 180 hp amphib 

Supercub can't come close to that (amphib vs. amphib comparison)   I know 

this factually as one of my friends has one of the nicest amphib Supercubs 

on the planet.  A Husky would be a better comparison to the Fox in my 

opinion, but takeoff I'm confident the Kitfox would still win if the 

aircraft are flown light.  Now, if you load both airplanes up with weight, 

horsepower and large wings will win, thereby giving the Husky the advantage. 

But give me a 100 hp 912, or a 115 hp 914 in my Fox, and I'm confident I 

would turn the tables.



I have some videos I need to get posted for you guys on the kitfox/lazair 

site.  I have a Avid on floats doing a takeoff contest against a Challenger, 

and a Kitfox against an extremely light 90 hp Cub.  Both are pretty 

convincing of the Light Sport Aircrafts potential as performers.  Fwiw - 

still the record holder for off the water takeoff is an Avid Flyer on 

straight floats.....2.7 seconds from standing still to lift off.  You won't 

find many airplanes that can do that on pavement.  I guess you can all tell 

I am biased towards the Avid/Kitfox/ and Highlander, as they are all 

derivatives of the original Dean Wilson Avid Flyer.  And man do they 

perform.  After 1300 hours of float time in Avids and Foxes, I can tell you 

that you can't find a better performing, more versatile, capable, and 

economical seaplane.  And the best part is thats they are just a hoooooot to 

fly!  When was the last time you watched someone do a circular takeoff with 

a float plane...on one float?  With the Avid and Kitfox they are so nimble 

on controls that doing so is not difficult, assuming you are familiar with 

your airplane.  And talk about versatile;  my little Model IV Kitfox on 

Amphibs with a 80 hp 912 rotax can fly alongside of any Supercub.  In fact, 

I have to slow down so they can keep up when at cruise.  My Kitfox is much 

more compatible in cruise flight to an Aviat Husky seaplane, even though 

they have 180 hp and a constant speed prop (and cost about 6 times the money 

of the fox).



Ok, ok, probably a little hard to believe.  So if my picture goes through, 

here is a panel shot from in my 80 hp Kitfox amphib that says it all.  Just 

check out my gps mph reading in the middle of the panel, my indicated 

airspeed, my altitude, and my rpm on the right side of the panel.  You will 

notice this little seaplane is VERY capable for cross country work, as well 

as for small lakes and airports. (incidentally, 5800 rpm is max power on a 

912.  Also, I more typically fly around at 4900-5000 rpm giving me right 

around 100 mph tas while burning all of 3.5 gph of regular unleaded auto 

fuel)



I'm not trying to knock anyone elses seaplane here.  As personally, I've 

never met an airplane I didn't like.  But my preference is an Avid and 

Kitfox.  Not because I'm biased and close minded toward other aircraft, but 

because I know how well the Avid and Kitfox work, both as land planes and 

seaplanes.    So for those of you looking for an economical alternative, the 

Avid and Kitfox choice is a very good one in my opinion.  And there are a 

lot of good used airplanes around, as well as kits from the manufacturers 

Kitfox, Just Aircraft co. (Highlander), and Airdale (for the Avid).



Paul

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av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Hi Chris,



Glad you enjoyed the article.  I'll be doing more in the future.



I'm also glad you enjoyed EAA's seaplane base.  It is in my opinion EAA's 

crown jewel.  Not big, but very high quality and extra special.  It has 

introduced most of us to the wonderful world of seaplanes.  Keep dreaming 

and one day you will find yourself owning one.



Metal airplanes vs tube and fabric....hmmmmm.  Well, here's my two cents on 

that.  If you look at race cars hitting walls at 150 mph, notice what they 

are in.  Chromoly steel tube frames.  Thats because they are light and can 

handle loads better pound for pound.  So a tube and fabric airplane is much 

the same.  Look at some of our most famous airplanes (cub, taylorcraft, 

stinson, waco, stearman, etc, etc) that have been around the longest.  They 

have held up very well over the decades.  Not that modern day Cessnas and 

Pipers haven't, but aluminum is more subject to metal fatigue than would be 

the steel tube frame.  I fly a lake amphibian as well as my Kitfox.  The 

lake is built like a tank compared to a Cessna.  Yet it has had a lot of 

fatigue cracks that had to be patched due to water operations causing 

excessive metal fatigue.  And the airplane only has a little more than 2000 

hours on it.  Imagine what it will look like when it hits 20,000 hours like 

a lot of old J-3's have probably endured?  Don't get me wrong, I love my old 

aluminum lake amphib.  But if I had to crash in one or the other, I'd prefer 

to be in my tube and fabric airplane.  Aluminum just doesn't have it when it 

comes to hitting the wall...



Keep your dream alive to one day own a seaplane.  It's really not as 

expensive as you may think.



Paul



ps - here's a pic of a few airplanes doing a stop on one of the lakes we 

used for our poker run at the Eagle River Wisconsin Seaplane Fly In this 

last weekend.  The photo represents about 1/2 of the airplanes in the poker 

run.  The Highlander amphib is in the foreground with my Kitfox amphib next 

to it.  This ought to get your heart pumping!

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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Hi Paul,



Thanks for the follow up.  I'm happy to hear a good description of tube and fabric aircraft and how they compare to metal craft.  I can't say that I've spent a lot of time researching the differences/advantages/disadvantages between them, but now I've got some incentive to do some more 



Al Barger is the president of our EAA chapter (and a friend of yours, I believe) and he had a lot of really great things to say about the Highlander.  I'll have to see if I can find some more info on it beyond what's on Just's web site.  It's a very attractive plane, and your article definitely touts its positive aspects.  I'm sure Al doesn't mind talking about seaplanes since his wife works at the seaplane base 



I'd love to have a 4-seat aircraft to haul the family around in, but I'm a little scared how much insurance is going to be on a 4-seater with enough capacity that can live on floats as well (thinking Murphy Moose on the big side; Tundra, Yukon, or Bush Caddy L-164 the next size down).  I reckon I've still got some time to think about it, though.



Is a Seaplane Pilots Association membership worth the investment?  Is that a good place to get more background information on the subject?



Thanks again for taking the time to write.  I find myself reading your article over and over.  Feel free to write more of them!



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Paul this cub was on straight 200 floats...around half tanks and beside

myself and the instructor for the float endorsement there wasn't much else

on board.  I saw a few of the places that plane had been into and to say it

must have been tight would be an understatement.



The Super cub was a great diversion.  Just having the horsepower under your

thumb!  It took a bit of getting used to flying with the wrong hand ( I'm a

south paw)  I don't think I'm going to try to get into one of the "bog

holes" in my fox any time soon.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

I know, I know!  The plane needs to be in the water.



Had a little boo boo Tuesday.  I brought the plane up to the pond to do a

bit of work on my float endorsement.  Just before launching I did a walk

around and found that when I put the plane in the garage the last time I had

bent the B#$% out of the rudder.  I brought it home and stripped the top of

the rudder, straightened the tubing, made one weld at the top of the main

tube and recovered the top half of the rudder.  Unfortunately I don't have

any Insignia white Polytone so I gave the refinished area a coat of clear

lacquer over the Polyspray.  It's solid enough but doesn't look the way it

should.....  More cloth and Insignia white are on their way as I hunt and

peck (I wouldn't dare to call it typing).



Noel

Model III-A

582-UL "B"box  three blade Ivo in-flight adjustable.

Aerocet 1100 Straight floats



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

BTW I'm with you on the tube planes.  A couple of years ago I had to do some

work on a Super Cub that flew in from BC (British Columbia) with the tail

bent to a ridiculous angle.  We had to resection longerons and replace a

fair bit of the welds in the tail of the plane.  My point is if it had been

a Cessna it would never have made the first ten feet of the trans

continental flight.  Monocoque construction doesn't like dents let alone

bends.



The ferry pilot said he didn't notice the defect in the tail at all.

Another reason to be very careful when having your plane ferried.  I have it

on good authority when the plane left BC it was in perfect condition.



Re: your Lake.  For quite a few years I beat all over this island in my

fathers Lake LA-4.  Quite the lovely plane but.....  Darn there always has

to be a but...   But.... With that plane you have to be very careful that

the front gear doors are closing completely before going for a swim.  To do

this hold the main gear locked with Vise grips and tie the tail down while

doing a retract.  The gear must be able to fully retract and still close the

doors fully.



I remember on time hitting a wake and having water short out our com radio

for several days. 



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

shortnaked(at)golden.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

I will vote for the Kitfox off the water quicker than a Super cub with 160 

hp



Paul's Kitfox off the water in 8 seconds ?



Mine is 100 lbs lighter ..............

Muahahahhwwaaaaa



you did see the under 4 second take off s on ski right Noel  ?





---

jghunter(at)nol.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

I'd love to have a 4-seat aircraft to haul the family around in, but I'm

a little scared how much insurance is going to be on a 4-seater with

enough capacity that can live on floats as well (thinking Murphy Moose

on the big side; Tundra, Yukon, or Bush Caddy L-164 the next size down).

I reckon I've still got some time to think about it, though.



*prob 4-6K depending on hull value and ur exp... etc. perhaps a bit more



Is a Seaplane Pilots Association membership worth the investment? Is that

a good place to get more background information on the subject?



* YES! nice publication, too. WATER magazine. i have had some stuff

published in it before... i wrote. if u r looking for some swell

floatplane exp... try turner's seaplane port in ME. if u r rated, have

some time, the ses rating, pass their scrutiny... etc... they will rent

172's solo. hardly anyone else in usa will... i went up there and got

siigned off in about 3.5 hrs... i got the ses at over at kenmore in

seattle. that training was great and it made a dif with the folks in

turner.  i did a 50 hr block of time there sev yrs back... was a

supper holiday. lots of lakes. mtn flying, too. plenty of challenges. hi

speed water taxi for miles on end.... amazing stuff. gosh, and if they

knew about the fun factor... they'd try to tax it!! the folk at turner's

are quite helpful. the area scenery is to die for. and did i mention...

NO shortage of lakes to fly to land on, fish or what ever... and take

off again. guess i logged about 6-8 hrs a day on floats... one day i did

over 100 water take offs and landings... )



oh, did i mention... TONS a' fun!



hope this helps...



feel free to email me offline if u have any specific questions...



regards



jam'n

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Shorty;



Yeah, my money would be on the fox for short takeoff.  But it would be much 

more fair to compare straight floats to straight floats.  Not an amphib fox 

against a straight float Supercub.  I'm convinced the S/cub wouldn't stand a 

chance then.  And if it were a lightweight two stroke in the Fox, it would 

be even more disheartening for the S/cub pilot.



Yeah, you are 100 lbs lighter than my lead sled 4 stroke 

everything-on-it-but-the-kitchen-sink Kitfox.  So I don't plan on 

challenging you to any takeoff contests anytime in the future?   <GRIN>



 Paul

---

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

Noel,



That's a very interesting story supporting tube and fabric.  And anyone that 

has seen how some of the bush planes north of us get used, it is certainly 

believable.  I guess I won't be hiring any ferry pilots anytime soon 

(snicker).



Neat to hear you experienced a Lake with your Dad.  They are fun airplanes. 

But I do agree with you that you have to be careful with those nose gear 

doors.  Traditionally they get all messed up when driving up onto a beach 

and then when driving back into the water later, the pilot tries to retract 

the gear when the nosewheel isn't straight.  So whenever I do that, once I 

enter the water and the plane is floating, I shut down and crawl out onto 

the nose and reach down to verify the nosewheel has centered.  If it isn't I 

find shallow water and then just swivel it back into a neutral position, 

then crawl back in the cockpit and retract it.  Never had a problem by doing 

so.  But it is easy to see when you drive into the water with the gear down 

how the nosewheel can not swivel itself back straight, as it is rare to have 

enough beach to go straight back into the water.  Interesting aside;  one of 

my lake instructors told me it is extremely important to maintain a correct 

hull angle to keep the nosewheel doors from catching a wave.  So he spent a 

lot of time showing me correct hull angle.  After I didn't do it right 

numerous times he got a little frustrated and said 'Ok, put it this way. 

Just pretend your family jewels are out there between those two nose wheel 

doors.  Now, do you really want to be dragging them in the water at 50 miles 

an hour?"  Worked for me.  Never since have I let those nose wheel doors 

drag too nose low...



Regarding your previous comment about landing a Supercub in a short 

place/bog;  Once I landed my Avid Flyer on straight floats in a 14 acre lake 

(pond) that was in the shape of a circle, with a large circular island in 

the middle of it (offering very little landing area width, and none in a 

straight line), and power lines running across one end (of course the end 

you had to take off over).  I know a Supercub wouldn't fare well in that 

small body of water, because there is no way he could ever get back out. 

The Avid had no trouble.  Climbed out right over the highlines with room to 

spare.  Once again, the Supercub is a phenomenal airplane.  But when you do 

the horsepower to weight, and wing loading comparisons of the early Avids 

and Kitfoxes against it, the Avid and Kitfox will have the distinct 

advantage for takeoff, climb, and landing.  Remember, early Avids had a 22 

mph stall speed.  But out of fairness to those reading this, I will admit 

that my newer laminar flow wing, four stroke Kitfox would probably require 

the same landing area as a Supercub, possible more, as my current Kitfox is 

a little hard to slow down.  But it will cruise faster than the cub.



Paul



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

True but skis a bit lighter than amphib floats.  You also have the "C" box

with the GSC/Warp prop.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article on LSAs on floats

jam-n wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I'd love to have a 4-seat aircraft to haul the family around in, but I'm

 a little scared how much insurance is going to be on a 4-seater with

 enough capacity that can live on floats as well (thinking Murphy Moose

 on the big side; Tundra, Yukon, or Bush Caddy L-164 the next size down).

 I reckon I've still got some time to think about it, though.

   


	


    I don't know about floatplanes specifically, but I asked my

insurance agent the following:



I'm building an experimental airplane, a Glastar Sportsman.  I

have the option of building this airplane with 2, 3, or 4 seats.  Is there any significant difference

in the cost of insurance based on the number of seats installed, 2, 3,

or 4?  I would be looking for a "full coverage" policy when it gets time

to obtain the insurance.

and her reply:

When you look at a breakdown on premium, the quote is probably 85% hull

premium and 15% liability premium.  The number of seats is not going to

make a huge difference.  You will be surcharged for 2 to 4 seats, but

not enough that should stop you from putting in 4 seats.



Her contact info is:

Melissa Perkins

mperkins(at)nationair.com

(800) 356-7075

-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118

http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/



"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an 

airplane."  --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005

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