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JDelamarter(at)lycoming.t
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 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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To All:
I am new to the Matronics email list and would like to introduce myself. My
name is Jon A. Delamarter. I hold an A&P license and a degree in aircraft
maintenance from Spartan School of Aeronautics (Tulsa, OK). I have been
married for more than my adult life (since 19) and have the world's most
wonderful wife and the 4 most beautiful and intelligent daughters that God
ever created. (My dog's pretty smart too.) I have about 50 hours of dual
in my logbook but have not soloed due to a disagreement between me and Uncle
Sam regarding my medical. As a certified airplane freak and airport bum, I
might just hold some sort of record for "Most Types Flown Before Solo." I
am particularly proud of the fact that I have T-6 aerobatic instruction on
the first page of my logbook! My professional aviation career began upon
graduation from Spartan on December 17, 1999. In the short 6½ years since,
I have enjoyed an unbelievably rewarding life. With the blessings of loving
family support, an excellent education, and an absolute dedication to
excellence, I have experienced career satisfaction and growth that I could
not have imagined. If you love this business, it will be good to you! If
you don't love it, get out. If I have learned one thing thus far, it is
this: It's always about the people! I have no idea how many of you will
read this email, but I want you to know something. You aviation folks are
my family. I am proud and humbled to be part of you.
Having said all that, and at the risk of sounding crassly commercial, I'd
love to tell you folks about what I'm doing now. As of February 1st of this
year, it has been my privilege to serve as manager of Lycoming's brand-new
experimental hot-rod shop, Thunderbolt Engines. As you know, the absence of
Lycoming's direct participation in the past has not prevented the dominance
of our brand in the experimental market. We owe this not only to those
designers who build their aircraft around our engine, but also and perhaps
even more so, to the inherent reliability and simplicity of our engines.
The bottom line is that, although many of you are willing to experiment with
different aircraft designs and construction techniques, few have the desire
to step away from the known quantity of a Lycoming engine.
In recognition of this fact, Lycoming began a journey down a new road last
year with the introduction of the kit program. This program is responsible
for the influx of new experimental Lycoming based engines being sold by 6
shops across the country. With this move, Lycoming formally acknowledged
the credibility of the custom engine for the common man.
On April 5th of this year, at Sun-'n-Fun in Lakeland, FL, Lycoming made
public the next step in its journey by unveiling Thunderbolt Engines.
Thunderbolt Engines exists to provide homebuilders, race pilots, and
competition aerobatic pilots with a factory engineered, factory built,
factory supported, factory guaranteed custom engine. In the brief span of
time since the announcement, we have been pleased to learn that the first
reaction from most of our customers upon learning about Thunderbolt Engines
is shock followed immediately by excitement. The most common comments have
been something like, "I'm so glad you guys are finally doing this. I've
been waiting a long time and really didn't expect it to happen." After
recovering from their initial surprise, many builders have eagerly shared
their ideas and concepts for customizing our engines. There are a
significant number of builders who are willing to pay a fair price for a
factory experimental engine. This core group understands the importance of
supporting the customization process with proper and adequate engineering,
quality, assembly, and testing protocol. Thunderbolt Engines is housed in
the ATC (Advanced Technology Center) here at Lycoming. The ATC is still
under development and will eventually consist of four build cells, static
display areas, an aircraft integration laboratory, a customer/employee
training facility, and offices. Once completed, the ATC will be available
to you for tours and training. We are currently operational and are
delivering engines. The intent is to construct a state-of-the-art facility
that will demonstrate our commitment to CDTA, Customer Driven Technological
Advancement. In plain English, we are creating, through the ATC, a
knowledge pool. We encourage you to challenge us with your requests and
ideas. We are discovering that many of our customers know a lot about our
product. Through our involvement in the kit program, we have developed
relationships with individuals and companies that have successfully and
responsibly modified our engines for many years. Through our customer
satisfaction surveys, we are gaining accurate, real-time Voice of the
Customer (VOC) data. We have gained experience and customer exposure
through our support of Reno racing and competition aerobatics. In addition,
Lycoming has made significant additions to its engineering staff. These
folks come from various backgrounds and bring fresh perspective and skills
to the table. By leveraging the data gathered from all these resources,
(customers, kit shops, customer surveys, racing/aerobatics, engineering,
etc.), we are building the knowledge pool. This data not only accelerates
our development technically, it also allows us to focus on developing those
products that best fulfill the needs of the customer.
The development of a Thunderbolt engine begins and ends with the Voice of
the Customer. Many builders call us requesting pricing for a specific
engine. While we certainly provide that information, we also attempt to
glean as much information as possible regarding specific aircraft
application and desired performance. From that data, we are frequently able
to provide the builder with several options, some of which they may not have
known existed. Through this process, we accomplish two things. First, we
match the builder with a custom solution that best accomplishes their stated
goal. Secondly, and equally important, we demonstrate our commitment to the
customer's best interests, rather than pushing a particular product. Our
customers have expressed a great deal of satisfaction with this process and
have been quick to differentiate us from the competition in this regard.
Thunderbolt Engines are currently segregated into three series: Signature,
Extreme, and Competition. A Thunderbolt Signature Series Engine is
differentiated from a certified, production engine in several ways. Like
all Thunderbolt Engines, Signature Series engines are constructed in
dedicated build cells by two man teams. In addition to being team built,
Signature engines are internally balanced and will be configured to the
customer's exact specifications. Items that may be customized range from
major configuration changes such as crankcase or crankshaft to fuel systems,
ignition systems, sumps, induction components, and turbocharging. Customers
will also choose from appearance options such as engine color(s), chrome,
etc. Billet aluminum components such as the prototype rocker covers
displayed at Sun-'n-Fun are in development but not yet online.
Representative of this series would be the engine built last year for Mike
Melville, the world's first civilian astronaut. This engine was an
O-360-A4M configured for updraft cooling and incorporating an experimental
Ellison fuel system. Mike operates this engine in a Long-EZ. Thunderbolt
Signature Series engines will receive a 2-year warranty. This is a real
warranty with real value.
Thunderbolt Extreme Series engines incorporate all the features of the
Signature Series and continue to the next level in terms of performance
upgrades. These items may consist of mildly increased compression ratio or
boost levels, or other yet to be defined upgrades. Thunderbolt Extreme
Series engines will receive a reduced warranty, due to the expected types of
operational dynamics.
Thunderbolt Competition Series engines incorporate all the features of the
Signature and Extreme Series and continue to the maximum level of
performance. These upgrades may consist of dramatically increased
compression ratio or boost levels, water injection, and/or other yet to be
defined upgrades. Representative of this group would be the engines built
for Jon Sharp's Nemesis NXT and Mike Jones' Glasair III. Also
representative of this group would be the engine we just shipped to Extra
for the new Mike Goulian airplane. This engine is an AEIO-580-L1B5 with
very special cylinders, pistons, and sparkplugs. Once fully broken in, we
are expecting 340-350 hp (at) 2700 RPM and 11:1 compression. Walter Extra
reports unbelievable climb from an extremely smooth-running engine.
Competition Series engines will be limited to highly experienced pilots and
will require a signed agreement from the customer limiting his right to sell
or change ownership of the engine. Any such change would require Lycoming's
approval. The purpose of this constraint is to prevent the sale of a 340hp
AEIO-580 to a 40hr. Cessna driver! These engines are all out performance
machines, have no representation of reliability, and carry no warranty.
Okay, enough for the blurb. Let's get down to brass tacks. At not quite 32
years of age, I am smart enough to know that I'm still wet behind the ears!
I do not pretend to know everything there is to know about aircraft engines.
However, I absolutely believe in Lycoming Engines and stand ready to support
you in any way possible. I am here to serve as the conduit between you, the
builder, and the full support of Lycoming's able staff of engineers,
technicians, and support personnel. I want you to know that I share your
enthusiasm for our sport and that I hope for the opportunity to speak to
each of you. I will be at Arlington, Oshkosh, and Reno. Please drop by or
contact me with your questions and ideas. I will make every attempt to
answer your inquiry personally and in a timely fashion.
Sincerely,
Jon A. Delamarter
Thunderbolt Manager
Lycoming Engines
(570)327-7115
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Craymondw(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000?
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klwerner(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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Cost is directly related to production numbers. More unit's produced and sold = lower cost/unit. But I am sure you knew that already!!!
So, why don't YOU put YOUR much lower cost 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system into YOUR airplane instead of that simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets?
It just makes sense, doesn't it?
do not archive
[quote] ---
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s_korney(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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FAA. attorneys, and judges...
Best... Steve
----Original Message Follows----
Reply-To: glasair-list(at)matronics.com
Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam
complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out
after
200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine.
Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4
cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost
$30,000
new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000?
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Bruce(at)glasair.org
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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Simple, economics of scale. I would be supprised if Lycoming makes 5,000 new engines a year. Detroit turns out hundreds of thousands.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
[quote]
--
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max.givan(at)ngc.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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GM does not have to get the FAA to micro manage and approve their every move. I figure that accounts for most of the price difference.
Lets stop giving the FAA any more money! The less money they have, the less they can intrude into our lives. With free enterprise and no FAA, our overall flying costs would decrease by at least the 66% we see in this example. Next - the oil companies and producers!
From: owner-glasair-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craymondw(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 10:16 AM
To: glasair-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines
Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000?
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jdhcv(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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PRODUCT LIABILTY INSURANCE! Jack do not archive
--- steve korney <s_korney(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
<s_korney(at)hotmail.com>
FAA. attorneys, and judges...
Best... Steve
----Original Message Follows----
Reply-To: glasair-list(at)matronics.com
Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North
Star four over head cam
complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and
injector system wore out
after
200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a
crated brand new engine.
Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances,
glorified Volkswagen 4
cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with
no roller tappets cost
$30,000
new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to
factory new cost $17,000?
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Glasair-List
Admin.
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__________________________________________________
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deej(at)deej.net
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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Bruce Gray wrote:
| Quote: | Simple, economics of scale. I would be supprised if Lycoming makes
5,000 new engines a year. Detroit turns out hundreds of thousands.
|
I agree that explains the diff. between the GM and Lyc products.
However, presuming his numbers are correct, I am still curious about his
actual question, which was "Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy
tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast
iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt
engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000?"
Why the $13k difference between what is essentially the same end
product? Are his numbers correct?
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
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Craymondw(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines |
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I wish I could remember her name, but I worked in Bridgeport Connecticut with a lady that was a former production line supervisor for Lycoming. When I asked her about the quality of the engines she just laughed and shook her head. I won't go into the details of what she said. I also knew an engineer and sales rep for Lycoming and I don't think I should jeopardize his job by telling you releasing his name. The engineer informed me that the best Lycoming engines were produced prior to 1967 when Lycoming manufactured all their own parts. He went on to say that the parts are now jobbed out to the lowest bidder. Although Lycoming produces maybe 5,000 engines a year, the engine has hardly changed since the 1930s. And they manufacture large quantities of replacement parts. I would have to see what Lycoming pays for product liability on a balance sheet before I would believe any of those claims. Many large firms find self insuring to be far far cheaper than using insurance companies. A smooth as silk brand new 220 HP four cylinder Franklin engine sells for a fraction of a Lycoming engine. I would also like to mention that all of my planes have had Lycoming engines and I found them reliable. What I feel is if Lycoming isn't able to compete with the prices of new and better engines coming on the market, they will lose market share and have to close their doors. This begs the question, if Lycoming owns your engine and insurance on previous engines doubled the cost, why aren't these engines selling for half the price?
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