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Mode C Veil Question
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jdmurr(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: Mode C Veil Question

What are the regulations for ultralights without transponders regarding being inside the 30mn circle but not in Class B airspace?  Thanks!

John



What are the regulations for ultralights without transponders regarding being inside the 30mn circle but not in Class B airspace? Thanks!





John

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Mode C Veil Question

Hi,



Your not allowed inside the mode-c circle without a transponder and alt. encoder.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: Mode C Veil Question

Roger Lee wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi,



Your not allowed inside the mode-c circle without a transponder and alt. encoder.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.




	


Things may have changed since 911 enabled the storm troopers, but there 

once was an exception for planes without an electrical system that can 

support a transponder. This was interpreted to mean that you can have 

electrical power but not enough generator power to keep your battery up 

while the transponder & all other equipment is operating. You could 

probably make a strong case that a 2stroke with only a 'lighting coil' 

fit that description. Piper Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc have flown inside the 

veil regularly in the past.  You still had to stay out of the actual B 

airspace, of course.



A call to your ATC (or better yet, a call to EAA's info line) would get 

you current info.



Charlie

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: Mode C Veil Question

In a message dated 1/14/2006 8:47:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

jdmurr(at)juno.com writes:

What  are the regulations for ultralights without transponders regarding 

being  inside the 30mn circle but not in Class B airspace?  Thanks!





John



This is a tricky one, I researched this one last year because I operate in  

the Orlando, FL veil. Clearly my Firefly is exempt because I have no elec  

syst.  The reg says "Certified Electrical System"  Antiques with no  starter are 

considered exempt by Local FAA here. The gray area is in the case of  a 

homebuilt with a non certified engine. My local FAA source(he used to do my  engine 

inspections) told me that technically a non certified engine and  electrical 

system is exempt but he did not suggest testing the theory. I ran a  mode c on 

my EZ.

BTW you can thank Ex Beauty Queen Ms Dole for this requirement.

 

 

Steve B

FF

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Mode C Veil Question



I had asked my instructor about this before....Because there are Ultralight symbols under the Class B area....and I knew these Guys didn't have Transponders..... He said because they didn't have Elec Start.....



 But he probly meant to say they didn't have an Elec System....

 So, If you have Elec Start.....But you start it with the "Pull Rope" can you go ahead and fly there....He he he

                                 Gotta Fly...

                                                 Mike in MN w/ GPL on FSII

And Narco 155 /850 Alt encoder

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

The following is a copy/paste of the relevant FAR, with highlighting via

capitalization added by me to indicate what most of us need to know:



Federal Aviation Regulation Part 91 Section 215

ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use

  1.. All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not

conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment

installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any

class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude

reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112

(Mode S).

  2.. All airspace. UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED OR DIRECTED BY ATC, NO

PERSON MAY OPERATE AN AIRCRAFT IN THE AIRSPACE DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPHS

(B)(1) THROUGH (B)(5) OF THIS SECTION, UNLESS THAT AIRCRAFT IS EQUIPPED WITH

AN OPERABLE CODED RADAR BEACON TRANSPONDER having either Mode 3/A 4096 code

capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by

ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the

code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance

with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is

equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode

C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by

transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This

requirement applies --

    1.. All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

    2.. All aircraft. IN ALL AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 NAUTICAL MILES OF AN AIRPORT

LISTED IN APPENDIX D, SECTION 1 OF THIS PART FROM THE SURFACE UPWARD TO

10,000 FEET MSL;

    3.. Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, ANY AIRCRAFT WHICH

WAS NOT ORIGINALLY CERTIFICATED WITH AN ENGINE-DRIVEN ELECTRICAL SYSTEM OR

WHICH HAS NOT SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN CERTIFIED WITH SUCH A SYSTEM INSTALLED,

balloon or glider MAY CONDUCT OPERATIONS IN THE AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 NAUTICAL

MILES OF AN AIRPORT LISTED IN APPENDIX D, SECTION 1 OF THIS PART PROVIDED

SUCH OPERATIONS ARE CONDUCTED--

      1.. OUTSIDE ANY CLASS A, CLASS B, OR CLASS C AIRSPACE AREA; and

      2.. Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace

area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

    4.. All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the

lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an

airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

    5.. All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally

certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not

subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or

glider -- --

      1.. In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of

Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below

2,500 feet above the surface; and

      2.. In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a

10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of

this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral

boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

==============================================



Sample of delimiters for Class B airspace within the Mode C:



http://www.kfackler.com/bin/mode_c.jpg

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

Bearing in mind that anything legally operating under Part 103 in not an 

aircraft, it is a "vehicle."

So all the following you added is great, but does not apply to part 103 

vehicles. Only aircraft.

An ultralight is not legally an aircraft, as defined by the FAA.

That is why ATC does not give ATC (separation) services to ultralights.

Thus the whole Sport Plane bit. And Experimentals, to which that all 

applies.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



kfackler wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



The following is a copy/paste of the relevant FAR, with highlighting via

capitalization added by me to indicate what most of us need to know:



Federal Aviation Regulation Part 91 Section 215

ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use

  1.. All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not

conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment

installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any

class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude

reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112

(Mode S).

  2.. All airspace. UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED OR DIRECTED BY ATC, NO

PERSON MAY OPERATE AN AIRCRAFT IN THE AIRSPACE DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPHS

(B)(1) THROUGH (B)(5) OF THIS SECTION, UNLESS THAT AIRCRAFT IS EQUIPPED WITH

AN OPERABLE CODED RADAR BEACON TRANSPONDER having either Mode 3/A 4096 code

capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by

ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the

code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance

with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is

equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode

C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by

transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This

requirement applies --

    1.. All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

    2.. All aircraft. IN ALL AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 NAUTICAL MILES OF AN AIRPORT

LISTED IN APPENDIX D, SECTION 1 OF THIS PART FROM THE SURFACE UPWARD TO

10,000 FEET MSL;

    3.. Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, ANY AIRCRAFT WHICH

WAS NOT ORIGINALLY CERTIFICATED WITH AN ENGINE-DRIVEN ELECTRICAL SYSTEM OR

WHICH HAS NOT SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN CERTIFIED WITH SUCH A SYSTEM INSTALLED,

balloon or glider MAY CONDUCT OPERATIONS IN THE AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 NAUTICAL

MILES OF AN AIRPORT LISTED IN APPENDIX D, SECTION 1 OF THIS PART PROVIDED

SUCH OPERATIONS ARE CONDUCTED--

      1.. OUTSIDE ANY CLASS A, CLASS B, OR CLASS C AIRSPACE AREA; and

      2.. Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace

area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

    4.. All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the

lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an

airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

    5.. All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally

certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not

subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or

glider -- --

      1.. In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of

Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below

2,500 feet above the surface; and

      2.. In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a

10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of

this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral

boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

==============================================



Sample of delimiters for Class B airspace within the Mode C:



http://www.kfackler.com/bin/mode_c.jpg

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

By your reasoning, I can fly right into Detroit Metro airspace since I'm

"not an aircraft." Isn't that silly on the face of it? Ultralights are

required to comply with the other FARs unless 103 gives them a specific rule

to the contrary, usually marked with the word "notwithstanding."



---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

| By your reasoning, I can fly right into Detroit Metro airspace 

since I'm

| "not an aircraft." Isn't that silly on the face of it? Ultralights 

are

| required to comply with the other FARs unless 103 gives them a 

specific rule

| to the contrary, usually marked with the word "notwithstanding."



Ken:



Without reading Part 103 again, ULs are not authorized in any 

controlled airspace without specific permission to do so by the 

controlling authority.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

Hiya Ken & All,



        FAR 103.17 states:

"No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class 

C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area 

of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior 

authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace."



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

---

luther b green

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 47

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

Here is the ultralight thing.

103.17 Operation in certain airspaces.



No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class 

C, Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of 

Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior 

authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

Bryan Green (Elgin SC)

---

_________________
Bryan Green Elgin SC
Firestar 447 Powerfin

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Mode C Veil Question

That didn't say anything aboutMODE "C"



               Gotta Fly...

                               Mike in MN

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: Mode C veil question

 	  Quote: 	
		    By your reasoning, I can fly right into Detroit Metro airspace since I'm

 "not an aircraft." Isn't that silly on the face of it? Ultralights are

 required to comply with the other FARs unless 103 gives them a

 specific rule to the contrary, usually marked with the word

"notwithstanding."
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Without reading Part 103 again, ULs are not authorized in any

 controlled airspace without specific permission to do so by the

 controlling authority.


	


Yes, that's true, which exemplifies my point, that some provisions of FAR

103 may supercede the other regs, but arguing that the other regs don't

apply to ultralights is, well, as I said, silly.



-Ken

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: Mode C veil question

Sorry for the confusion. Never meant to imply that part 103 vehicles 

could go where no one else could, was merely attempting to add one more 

facet to the original question by John Murr, which was:

What are the regulations for ultralights without transponders regarding being inside the 30nm circle but not in Class B airspace? Thanks!

John

And all the replies focused on what sort of electrical system was 

involved. However what I was trying to point out is that ultralights are 

not any part of any of the regs that were quoted in those replies. But 

since I omitted the part about ultralights not being allowed in 

controlled airspace anyway, I can see how you drew your conclusion.

As far as "Ultralights are required to comply with the other FAR's 

unless part 103 gives them a specific rule to the contrary," that 

depends on which FAR's you are referencing.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

kfackler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> By your reasoning, I can fly right into Detroit Metro airspace since I'm

>"not an aircraft." Isn't that silly on the face of it? Ultralights are

>required to comply with the other FARs unless 103 gives them a

>specific rule to the contrary, usually marked with the word

>    

>

"notwithstanding."

>Without reading Part 103 again, ULs are not authorized in any

>controlled airspace without specific permission to do so by the

>controlling authority.

>    

>

Yes, that's true, which exemplifies my point, that some provisions of FAR

103 may supercede the other regs, but arguing that the other regs don't

apply to ultralights is, well, as I said, silly.

-Ken

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: Mode C veil question

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sorry for the confusion. Never meant to imply that part 103 vehicles

 could go where no one else could, was merely attempting to add one more

 facet to the original question


	


Got you. Good point.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as "Ultralights are required to comply with the other FAR's

 unless part 103 gives them a specific rule to the contrary," that

 depends on which FAR's you are referencing.


	


Yeah, and to some extent, which person you ask and on what day! In any case,

you're darn right "it depends."



-Ken



do not archive

Kirk Smith

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Mode C Veil Question

What are the regulations for ultralights without transponders regarding being inside the 30mn circle but not in Class B airspace? Thanks!

John

I'd call the FAA ...........

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: Mode C Veil Question

Kolbers,



The regulations "certificated with electrical system". This means that 

when the aircraft received its airworthiness certificate, if it had an 

electrical system, then it requires the transponder within the veil. 

There is no differentiation between Type Certificated and experimental 

or UL "vehicles".



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: Mode C veil question

Part 103 is very specific about operating rules including where it 

cannot operate legally. See

http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/FAR.part103.html



Specifically see the following section:

  Sec. 103.17  Operations in certain airspace.



     No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within an airport 

traffic

area, control zone, airport radar service area, terminal control area, 

or

positive control area unless that person has prior authorization from 

the air

traffic control facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.



The areas referred to in this section I think would include the area 

within the Mode C Veil.



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Mode C Veil Question

I disagree.

An ultralight is a vehicle, it is not an aircraft,

(We are talking FAR's here, not appearances or behaviors)

and specifically does not have an Airworthiness Certificate.

An ultralight is not required to have any particular equipment.

An Experimental or Type Certificated aircraft is exactly that, an 

aircraft, and can

have or be required to have all sorts of stuff that ultralights don't.

There is no reason to put a transponder on an ultralight, since ATC doesn't

interact with ultralights like they do with aircraft anyway.



Richard Pike

TRI ATCT (retired)



Thom Riddle wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Kolbers,



The regulations "certificated with electrical system". This means that 

when the aircraft received its airworthiness certificate, if it had an 

electrical system, then it requires the transponder within the veil. 

There is no differentiation between Type Certificated and experimental 

or UL "vehicles".



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: Mode C Veil Question

In a message dated 1/16/06 8:17:39 AM Central Standard Time, 

jtriddle(at)adelphia.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Kolbers,

 

 The regulations "certificated with electrical system". This means that 

 when the aircraft received its airworthiness certificate, if it had an 

 electrical system, then it requires the transponder within the veil. 

 There is no differentiation between Type Certificated and experimental 

 or UL "vehicles".

 

 Thom in Buffalo

 


	


Thom, I think that you are right in your interpretation.   However I did not 

want to try to explain the rule to the local FAA.

Steve

do not archive

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